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Thread: Light collecting power and aperture.

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.



    Quote Originally Posted by CamelHat View Post
    This may be different for DSOs. Stars are always focused at a point but DSOs are surfaces so we need to consider the light flux. (...) It has to be the sensitivity of the human eye to larger objects that makes the difference.
    Thanks CamelHat for your addition!
    You are quite right of course and I can underline this experience, like most of us. This has to do with the physical properties of our human eyes and like all observers we are glad it works this way. This thread was about the telescope-side on stars, but we shouldn't forget the human aspect on DSO's.
    Since you are a native Dutch-speaker, more reading: http://members.ziggo.nl/jhm.vangaste...kyobjecten.pdf


    For further reading
    From the literature-list of Jan van Gastel:


    1. Roger N. Clark (1990), Visual Astronomy of the Deep Sky, Sky PublishingCorporation & Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, NewYork, Port Chester, Melbourne, Sydney.
    2. H. R. Blackwell (1946), Contrast thresholds of the human eye, J. Opt. Soc. Am. 36,624-643.
    3. R.N. Clark (2005), Optimum Magnified Visual Angle, Visual Astronomy of theDeep Sky, op: Clarkvision.com: OMVA in Visual Astronomy of the Deep Sky
    4. Nils Olof Carlin (1997), Another interpretation of the data from Blackwell, H.R.(1946): Contrast thresholds of the human eye, op:Another interpretation of the data from Blackwell, H R (1946): Contrast Thresholds of the Human Eye
    5. Mel Bartels, Visual Astronomy: an investigation into the visual optimum detectionmagnification, op: Visual Astronomy at the Telescope's Eyepiece
    6. Alan M. MacRobert: Secrets of Deep-Sky Observing, ophttp://skytonight.com/howto/basics/3304001.html?page=5&c=y
    7. Mel Bartels: ODM, programma voor het berekenen van de Optimum DetectionMagnification (gebaseerd op Clark, 1990), te downloaden vanaf:http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/dnld/odm.zip
    8. American Optimetric Association: The eye and nightvision, op:http://www.aoa.org/x5352.xml
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  3. #12
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Well we could have done the whole thing for a 5 mm eye pupil and picked magnifications such that the exit pupil is smaller. For simplicity let's just assume 5 mm.

    Let's say we have 10x50 binos and we have telescopes with a 30 mm eyepiece and an F ratio such that the exit pupil D/M=5 or D*30/F=5, or F ratio F/D=6. Then in all cases we have a 5 mm exit pupil.

    Stars are viewed as parallel light bundles so the intensity is proportional to the square of the aperture D.

    For surface objects the flux is determined by the F ratio like in AP. So for the case of a constant F ratio of 6 the flux does not change in function of aperture. This is very different from viewing stars. The brightness would be the same for all cases. Your table does not apply to DSOs, only stars.

    PS (edit): I noticed my reply crossed with yours, thanks for your update, I will check the references.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Baars View Post
    Since you are a native Dutch-speaker, more reading: http://members.ziggo.nl/jhm.vangaste...kyobjecten.pdf


    For further reading
    From the literature-list of Jan van Gastel:


    1. Roger N. Clark (1990), Visual Astronomy of the Deep Sky, Sky PublishingCorporation & Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, NewYork, Port Chester, Melbourne, Sydney.
    2. H. R. Blackwell (1946), Contrast thresholds of the human eye, J. Opt. Soc. Am. 36,624-643.
    3. R.N. Clark (2005), Optimum Magnified Visual Angle, Visual Astronomy of theDeep Sky, op: Clarkvision.com: OMVA in Visual Astronomy of the Deep Sky
    4. Nils Olof Carlin (1997), Another interpretation of the data from Blackwell, H.R.(1946): Contrast thresholds of the human eye, op:Another interpretation of the data from Blackwell, H R (1946): Contrast Thresholds of the Human Eye
    5. Mel Bartels, Visual Astronomy: an investigation into the visual optimum detectionmagnification, op: Visual Astronomy at the Telescope's Eyepiece
    6. Alan M. MacRobert: Secrets of Deep-Sky Observing, ophttp://skytonight.com/howto/basics/3304001.html?page=5&c=y
    7. Mel Bartels: ODM, programma voor het berekenen van de Optimum DetectionMagnification (gebaseerd op Clark, 1990), te downloaden vanaf:http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/dnld/odm.zip
    8. American Optimetric Association: The eye and nightvision, op:http://www.aoa.org/x5352.xml
    Thank you for these links John.
    The first was very interesting! http://members.ziggo.nl/jhm.vangaste...kyobjecten.pdf

    I wish there was a English translation of the article as it ties in well with what Alan discussed here: Why Can't I See That Galaxy?

    By the way there are two very beautiful words for me in the article.
    achtergrondhelderheid and oppervlaktehelderheid. In Afrikaans these would have been two or three separate words.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Picking from column 'B' is also a very good number for that frequent visitor question "what power is this?". Using the 3000 number, in my case, usually keeps the drug store 585x for $70 retort out of the conversation, even though I usually employ a 30mm eyepiece when general viewing with visitors.

    Steve
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Baars View Post
    The question was raised: what if someone has an eye pupil that is importantly smaller than 7mm? Let's say 2.5 mm or even 2 mm? The gain in lightgathering becomes a lot more in that case?

    The answer is yes and no. The gathering of light related to a 2 mm eye pupil becomes far more, but that doesn't lead to seeing fainter stars. Pity... The startposition of a 2mm eyepupil is at approximately at magnitude 3.2 or so. The 7mm pupil reaches magnitude 6. The first step with 50mm binoculars leads to 625X gathering power related to a 2mm eye pupil. Which means 7 magnitudes gain.
    That is not quite true because the exit pupil is much larger than the eye pupil in that case so a lot of light is wasted. For instance with 10x50 binos the exit pupil is 5 mm so the pupil only receives 2**2/5**2 = 4/25 of the factor 625, or only 100 times. People with a very small pupil will benefit much more from magnification because that's how they can receive all the light. Magnification makes the exit pupil smaller.

    From the articles that you linked it appears that the best magnification is when the exit pupil is equal to the eye's pupil.

    In the references I read that it's magnification plays a major role. I believe that because I was struggling once to see an asterism with my 30 mm using an 80 mm scope with focal length 480 mm so the exit pupil was 80/16=5 mm which should be optimal for my eyes. When I put in the 9 mm I saw the stars so much better even when they became more blurry. Or when I used the 2x Barlow with a good quality 24 mm that worked the best. I was surprised because the light flux is less than with 30 mm.

    So magnification plays a major role in addition to the total light gathering capacity, and for a fixed length eyepiece the magnification and aperture go hand in hand so yes it's all about aperture. Assuming everything else equal such as the optical quality.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Quote Originally Posted by CamelHat View Post

    So magnification plays a major role in addition to the total light gathering capacity, and for a fixed length eyepiece the magnification and aperture go hand in hand so yes it's all about aperture. Assuming everything else equal such as the optical quality.
    You are right. Condition is that all gathered light enters the eye. So magnification must go up for an elderly person in order to see the same as his grandson.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Hello John,

    and thank you for listing the works of Roger Clark, Mel Bartels, and others,
    as these are very important for optimizing the observing strategies of the deep sky objects!
    I have profited quite a lot from Roger Clark, and and from the reports on research of the visual perception in other fields.

    Very helpful are the factors listed by Mel Bartels, everybody should learn and live them by heart.
    Knowing and applying these factors in the observing practice may save a couple of inches on the aperture.

    Roger Clark's research and results have been discussed here and in the other forums from Australia
    to who knows where else, and it is also good to check out the comments.

    Thank you once again,

    JG
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    Thanks JG.

    I was wondering:
    Grandpa and grandma must use a magnification that gives an exitpupil which is the same as their own eyepupil. Let us say 2 mm. (magnification 25X) When their grandsons and daughters observe with the same exitpupil, they will spill a big part of their potential 7mm in the retina, but still observe with the full 50mm. They won't get any deeper though. 50mm is 50mm whatever the magnification. Ceteris paribus, so acuity of the eyes etc etc not calculated. In the case of normal deepsky observing at higher than 0.5D the youngsters have no advantage any more.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    All true. But my point (perhaps lost due to being too brief) is that the first step that gives the maximum gain in light gathering power depends on how the individual dilates.

    So take an elderly person who only dilates to 5mm. The first binocular they should have in their arsenal is not a 70mm but rather a 50mm. That gives a 5 magnitude gain if they wisely choose a 10x50.

    Similarly someone who is older than dirt but manages to dilate to 6mm on occasion might be better served by a 10x60.

    The youngster is of course well advised to get a 10x70.

    Where the maximum benefit happens depends on where you start from.

    I need to find a 10x55.
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    Default Re: Light collecting power and aperture.

    This is interesting.
    I am using 25X100 binoculars with a 4mm exit pupil.
    I am probably in that 5mm dilation age.
    Am I missing out on some light here?
    Or is the exit pupil well matched to my eyes?

    The thing is, it looks really good to me.
    Mark

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