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Thread: Barlow+Ortho

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    Default Barlow+Ortho



    Hello again. I have already asked, in this forum, which is the best eyepiece for planets: What's The Best Eyepiece for planets?
    What I realized, from many of the opinions that were given, was that the best are the orthoscopic eyepieces. But due to small eye relief, the best way to use them is to attach them to a barlow.

    Which is the best set?

    TS Optics TSB21 1,5x and 2x achromatic Barlow Lens - 1,25 inch - fully multicoated
    tsb21.jpg
    Kokusai Kohki Fujiyama HD-OR 9mm - a classical Abbe ortho
    kokusai-kohki-fujiyama-hd-or-orthos-1000.jpg

    or

    Baader 1.25" Q-Barlow - HT multicoated - for visual and photographical purposes
    ... Extends the focal length by 1.3x or 2.25x
    q-barlow.jpg
    Baader 1.25" Classic Ortho 10mm eyepiece - original Zeiss Ortho design
    Classic_10mm_Lg.jpg

    ?
    Last edited by JPAG; 11-23-2017 at 06:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    If a star party tryout is possible between the Baader and the KK's that would be my recommendation. There have been several postings here and on other forums that have split pretty evenly on the two eyepieces. If you go by the written reports, you may be choosing the more persuasive argument rather than the better eyepiece for you. These eyepieces are so close in overall performance that this really is a personal preference decision.

    The Baader is the optically better Barlow, but the unusual ratios may be of greater or lesser use for you. I have Tele Vue 1.8x and 2.5x 1.25" Barlows, and I find the odd ratios useful for me. You can calculate the various final focal length possibilities for your various eyepieces and see which combinations give the most even range of magnifications. You can also make a chart of resultant exit pupil sizes and see if that tips the argument more to one Barlow over the other.

    You must keep in mind that you are primarily choosing Othos for the best possible planetary views. That thinking is based on the fact that they offer fewer air to glass surfaces and tighter AFOV's which together, provide less scatter and greater throughput than the more complicated eyepiece designs. Even with these high quality Barlows, you are now adding four more air to glass surfaces with the TS Barlow and six more air to glass surfaces with the Baader Barlow, so if you are using the longer focal length Ortho with a Barlow just to gain eye relief you are negating the Ortho advantage and ending up with a system that is more complicated and less optimized than a modern design like a TMB Planetary, Meade HD-60, Celestron X-cel LX, or a Tele Vue Delite, which all also give wider fields and are more useful as general all purpose eyepieces.

    Occasional Barlow use is a great and versatile supplement to have available in your eyepiece case, but you should be choosing eyepieces first and foremost for their stand alone performance. If you plan to do the bulk of your viewing with the longer focal length Ortho/Barlow combination, you should rethink the logic of that decision.

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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by Trombatissimo View Post
    If a star party tryout is possible between the Baader and the KK's that would be my recommendation. There have been several postings here and on other forums that have split pretty evenly on the two eyepieces. If you go by the written reports, you may be choosing the more persuasive argument rather than the better eyepiece for you. These eyepieces are so close in overall performance that this really is a personal preference decision.

    The Baader is the optically better Barlow, but the unusual ratios may be of greater or lesser use for you. I have Tele Vue 1.8x and 2.5x 1.25" Barlows, and I find the odd ratios useful for me. You can calculate the various final focal length possibilities for your various eyepieces and see which combinations give the most even range of magnifications. You can also make a chart of resultant exit pupil sizes and see if that tips the argument more to one Barlow over the other.

    You must keep in mind that you are primarily choosing Othos for the best possible planetary views. That thinking is based on the fact that they offer fewer air to glass surfaces and tighter AFOV's which together, provide less scatter and greater throughput than the more complicated eyepiece designs. Even with these high quality Barlows, you are now adding four more air to glass surfaces with the TS Barlow and six more air to glass surfaces with the Baader Barlow, so if you are using the longer focal length Ortho with a Barlow just to gain eye relief you are negating the Ortho advantage and ending up with a system that is more complicated and less optimized than a modern design like a TMB Planetary, Meade HD-60, Celestron X-cel LX, or a Tele Vue Delite, which all also give wider fields and are more useful as general all purpose eyepieces.

    Occasional Barlow use is a great and versatile supplement to have available in your eyepiece case, but you should be choosing eyepieces first and foremost for their stand alone performance. If you plan to do the bulk of your viewing with the longer focal length Ortho/Barlow combination, you should rethink the logic of that decision.
    Thanks for your awnser.

    I'm sorry, my mistake, I forgot to say one thing: I chose the ortho and the barlow, not only for planetary observation, but also to use the ortho by itself. For example, the ortho KK Fujiyama and the TS barlow give me 200x magnification (as I said, can be used for planetary observation). On the other hand, the ortho KK alone gives me 100x magnification, which is very useful for globular clusters, and some bright planetary nebulae (Ring and Dumbbel, for example).
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    There is no reason one couldn't cross match, day use the KK ortho with thr Baader Barlow.

    I like the KKs better because scattered light is better controlled and the smaller FOV is not a problem, I'll accept that to get best contrast.

    But by adding a Barlow you add more optical surfaces and opportunities for scattered light. I have the Baader Q Barlow and it's quite nice. TV Barlows are excellent. I'm more likely to use the Orthoscopics alone and unbarlowed to get the best contrast. I'll more likely Barlow a more complex eyepiece design like a Panoptic or Delos.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Hello JPAG,

    I agree with Ken and not_Fritz, as above.

    The Baader Q-Turret Barlow is an air-spaced triplet in excellent optics quality regarding the transmissivity of light and contrast, and on the DSOs it is rated higher than the generic ED Barlows, like GSO.

    Now, the problem is in the often overseen detail, namely how the EPs and Barlows are matched to your particular telescopes.
    On my 6" F/5 achro, the BCO 10mm ortho is a very good choice, and the 6mm is still good. the better EPs at 10mm and 6mm are either much more expensive, or discontinued.
    What does not work as expected is the Baader Q-Turret Barlow on the BCO 10mm. However, this barlow works again on other eyepieces, unfortunately discontinued, like the old Leitz Periplan.

    So, there is no way around the orthos in the range of 6mm down to 4mm, and with the 4mm ortho you'll also need scissors to cut your eyebrows short. Otherwise, you'll be more cleaning the 4mm ortho than using it for observing.

    I have recently seen the TMB Supermonocentric 4mm offered for 400 EUR on the eBay, and the Zeiss Abbe offered to me from someone in Portugal for 900 EUR (Black Friday), otherwise 1,100.
    The old CZJ (VEB) Asiola/Telementor orthos go still for around 200 EUR, sometimes much more. Not worth of as less as 50 nifty, I used to have one 50 years ago.

    So, with the KK it will be still money saving.

    Hoping this helps,

    JG
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    There is no reason one couldn't cross match, day use the KK ortho with thr Baader Barlow.

    I like the KKs better because scattered light is better controlled and the smaller FOV is not a problem, I'll accept that to get best contrast.

    But by adding a Barlow you add more optical surfaces and opportunities for scattered light. I have the Baader Q Barlow and it's quite nice. TV Barlows are excellent. I'm more likely to use the Orthoscopics alone and unbarlowed to get the best contrast. I'll more likely Barlow a more complex eyepiece design like a Panoptic or Delos.
    Thanks for your awnser.

    The KK ortho with the Baader barlow, is the more expensive of the sets and, mainly, give a magnification of 225x, that may be too much for my 6-inch newtonian. Anyway, I'll take your opinion into account. Thanks
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    I am with nFA. I have tried on many occasion to barlow Orthos with good quality barlows like TeleVue and Baader Q barlow. Never like the results because the barlows add extra scatter. I prefer to use Orthos straight. Orthos designed to minimize number of glasses surfaces, by adding barlow you add extra and compromise the intended purpose.

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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by j.gardavsky View Post
    Hello JPAG,

    I agree with Ken and not_Fritz, as above.

    The Baader Q-Turret Barlow is an air-spaced triplet in excellent optics quality regarding the transmissivity of light and contrast, and on the DSOs it is rated higher than the generic ED Barlows, like GSO.

    Now, the problem is in the often overseen detail, namely how the EPs and Barlows are matched to your particular telescopes.
    On my 6" F/5 achro, the BCO 10mm ortho is a very good choice, and the 6mm is still good. the better EPs at 10mm and 6mm are either much more expensive, or discontinued.
    What does not work as expected is the Baader Q-Turret Barlow on the BCO 10mm. However, this barlow works again on other eyepieces, unfortunately discontinued, like the old Leitz Periplan.

    So, there is no way around the orthos in the range of 6mm down to 4mm, and with the 4mm ortho you'll also need scissors to cut your eyebrows short. Otherwise, you'll be more cleaning the 4mm ortho than using it for observing.

    I have recently seen the TMB Supermonocentric 4mm offered for 400 EUR on the eBay, and the Zeiss Abbe offered to me from someone in Portugal for 900 EUR (Black Friday), otherwise 1,100.
    The old CZJ (VEB) Asiola/Telementor orthos go still for around 200 EUR, sometimes much more. Not worth of as less as 50 nifty, I used to have one 50 years ago.

    So, with the KK it will be still money saving.

    Hoping this helps,

    JG
    Yes, it's true. I had a 4mm polssl eyepiece, and in fact I spent more time cleaning it than using it. Over time, the eyepiece began to deteriorate and I had to throw it away.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    JPAG, you have F6 scope, 6mm EP is the shortest I would recommend for planets in your scope. 4.5mm will just add empty magnification and likely degrade image details. Orthos in 6mm range are quite manageable. I use 6mm BCO on planets in my refractors and like the result.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by JPAG View Post
    Yes, it's true. I had a 4mm polssl eyepiece, and in fact I spent more time cleaning it than using it. Over time, the eyepiece began to deteriorate and I had to throw it away.
    Thanks.
    A 4mm Plossl has about 2mm eye relief. A 4mm ortho has 3mm eye relief.
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