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Thread: Barlow+Ortho

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho



    Quote Originally Posted by Bigzmey View Post
    JPAG, you have F6 scope, 6mm EP is the shortest I would recommend for planets in your scope. 4.5mm will just add empty magnification and likely degrade image details. Orthos in 6mm range are quite manageable. I use 6mm BCO on planets in my refractors and like the result.
    Agreed. Only on maybe one or two nights a year here would seeing ne good enough to go shorter than 6mm. At 3mm you'd start seeing defects in your eyes....!
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    Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80 (mods for white light solar), SV ED80 f7 Newtonians: Z12 f5 Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binocular Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG

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  3. #12
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    ...
    At 3mm you'd start seeing defects in your eyes....!
    In my case it is when barlowed down to 2.5 mm, ha, ha.

    It all depends on the quality/performance of the optics and on the seeing conditions.
    The f=3.5mm is often regarded as the bottom line, but still useful on the close double stars,
    and on the bright but smallish planetary nebulae.

    Best,

    JG
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  5. #13
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    A 4mm Plossl has about 2mm eye relief. A 4mm ortho has 3mm eye relief.
    And what about a 5mm ortho? It's more confortable to use it? Or it's almost the same as the 4mm ortho? A 5mm eyepiece give me 180x, which is ideal for my 6-inch newtonian (aperture * 1,2) in terms of planetary observation. My Omegon LE 5mm eyepiece (7 lenses) give me AMAZING images of Jupiter and Saturn, then a 5mm ortho (only 4 lenses), although it's more uncomfortable to use, must give better images, or not?
    TS (GSO) 150/900 Newtonian Telescope; SkyWatcher 130/900 Newtonian Telescope; KONEX 10x50 Binoculars
    Omegon Serie LE 5mm 1.25" EyePiece; Skywatcher Super MA 10mm 1.25" Eyepiece; Skywatcher Super MA 25mm 1,25" Eyepiece
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by JPAG View Post
    And what about a 5mm ortho? It's more confortable to use it? Or it's almost the same as the 4mm ortho? A 5mm eyepiece give me 180x, which is ideal for my 6-inch newtonian (aperture * 1,2) in terms of planetary observation. My Omegon LE 5mm eyepiece (7 lenses) give me AMAZING images of Jupiter and Saturn, then a 5mm ortho (only 4 lenses), although it's more uncomfortable to use, must give better images, or not?
    I don't know the Omegon eyepieces directly, I've looked at their reviews and specifications. I'm assuming that they are similar in performance to others in that price class. The Omegons are not as costly as TV Delos but are a good value. In addition to not costing as much as Delos they don't perform as well Delos I understand. I haven't tested directly though. From what I hear TV has tighter control on scratches and digs on lens surfaces plus better coatings resulting in better control of scattered light and better contrast. That's why TV costs more than Omegon.

    With that in mind TV Delos does not have the contrast and scattered light control of an Orthoscopic. I did direct comparisons between TV Delos and BCO orthos during shadow transits on Jupiter. The BCOs outperformed the TV Delos in rendering cloud band detail plus the transiting shadow of Europa was darker, less scattered light.

    Since then I've compared the KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics to the BCOs and find the KKs to be considerably better. So yes, perhaps less comfortable, less easy to share views with inexperienced group, but definitely a performance improvement.

    The eye relief in Orthoscopics is 0.75 times the focal length. So 3.75mm for the 5mm.
    j.gardavsky, JPAG, Bigzmey and 1 others like this.
    Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80 (mods for white light solar), SV ED80 f7 Newtonians: Z12 f5 Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binocular Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG

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  8. #15
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by JPAG View Post
    And what about a 5mm ortho? It's more confortable to use it? Or it's almost the same as the 4mm ortho? A 5mm eyepiece give me 180x, which is ideal for my 6-inch newtonian (aperture * 1,2) in terms of planetary observation. My Omegon LE 5mm eyepiece (7 lenses) give me AMAZING images of Jupiter and Saturn, then a 5mm ortho (only 4 lenses), although it's more uncomfortable to use, must give better images, or not?
    Omegon are rebrand of Long Perng LER design which is sold by many vendors. They are good entry level EPs if the price is right. I see them on Amazon for $100 and this is too high. There are better quality EPs with good eye relief like Celestron X-CEL LX and Meade HD60, which cost less, very comfortable to use and superior to LER in optical performances. Still, they are not as good as good Orthos. In optics there is no free lunch, you design/pick EP for the futures you desire. That would be sharpness, light scatter control and light transmittance for Orthos and compromise on field of view and viewing comfort.
    Last edited by Bigzmey; 11-25-2017 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    I don't know the Omegon eyepieces directly, I've looked at their reviews and specifications. I'm assuming that they are similar in performance to others in that price class. The Omegons are not as costly as TV Delos but are a good value. In addition to not costing as much as Delos they don't perform as well Delos I understand. I haven't tested directly though. From what I hear TV has tighter control on scratches and digs on lens surfaces plus better coatings resulting in better control of scattered light and better contrast. That's why TV costs more than Omegon.

    With that in mind TV Delos does not have the contrast and scattered light control of an Orthoscopic. I did direct comparisons between TV Delos and BCO orthos during shadow transits on Jupiter. The BCOs outperformed the TV Delos in rendering cloud band detail plus the transiting shadow of Europa was darker, less scattered light.

    Since then I've compared the KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics to the BCOs and find the KKs to be considerably better. So yes, perhaps less comfortable, less easy to share views with inexperienced group, but definitely a performance improvement.

    The eye relief in Orthoscopics is 0.75 times the focal length. So 3.75mm for the 5mm.
    Very interesting. In relation to Omegon LE Planetary 5mm, the online store where I bought it (here in Europe is Astroshop.eu) strongly recommended it. They told me it was superior to TS HR Planetary 5mm and to SkyWatcher UWA Planetary 5mm (these two are TMB Planetary "clones"). Omegon costs € 99, while TS costs € 69 and SkyWatcher costs € 52. Anyway, I was very impressed. It's the best eyepiece I have had until today.
    If the orthos are superior to the Omegon LE, and even to the TV Delos themselves, then they should give stunning images! Of course, they have the disadvantage of small FOV and eye relief, but we can't have everything in this life.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigzmey View Post
    Omegon are rebrand of Long Perng LER design which is sold by many vendors. They are good entry level EPs if the price is right. I see them on Amazon for $100 and this is too high. There are better quality EPs with good eye relief like Celestron X-CEL LX and Meade HD60, which cost less, very comfortable to use and superior to LER in optical performances. Still, they are not as good as good Orthos. In optics there is no free lunch, you design/pick EP for the futures you desire. That would be sharpness, light scatter control and light transmittance for Orthos and compromise on field of view and viewing comfort.
    Yes it's true. That's what I just told to not_Fritz_Argelander. We can't have everything in this life.
    Somehow the more complex eyepieces like the Celestron X-CEL LX or even the TV Delos, are, more or less, orthos with small embedded barlows.
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by JPAG View Post
    Yes it's true. That's what I just told to not_Fritz_Argelander. We can't have everything in this life.
    Somehow the more complex eyepieces like the Celestron X-CEL LX or even the TV Delos, are, more or less, orthos with small embedded barlows.
    Exactly. The main trick for getting wide fields and long eye relief is to use "not quite a Barlow" but rather what is known in the trade as a "Smyth lens" it is a negative lens group that acts similarly to the Barlow but corrects additional aberrations.

    A Chronological History of Smyth & Barlow Lenses

    The eye end grouping of lenses can be based on Plossl, Orthoscopic, or Erfle designs or modified variants.

    I also found that JG originally posted the same link in this thread....

    Eyepieces, Barlow, Smyth lens: FAQ
    Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80 (mods for white light solar), SV ED80 f7 Newtonians: Z12 f5 Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binocular Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG

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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    Exactly. The main trick for getting wide fields and long eye relief is to use "not quite a Barlow" but rather what is known in the trade as a "Smyth lens" it is a negative lens group that acts similarly to the Barlow but corrects additional aberrations.

    A Chronological History of Smyth & Barlow Lenses

    The eye end grouping of lenses can be based on Plossl, Orthoscopic, or Erfle designs or modified variants.

    I also found that JG originally posted the same link in this thread....

    Eyepieces, Barlow, Smyth lens: FAQ
    Amazing. In that case, my Omegon LE 5mm does not have a focal length of 5mm, it actually has a longer focal length, but it works like a 5mm ortho, plossl or Erfl, right?
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    Default Re: Barlow+Ortho

    Some time ago I held a simultanous comparison between a Fujiyama 9mm and a BCO 10mm. Over here
    https://www.astroforum.nl/forum/inst...n-vergelijking

    Never mind the Dutch language, the conclusions were:

    -Transmission and contrast of the Fujiyama are a tad higher than the BCO.
    - Glow around bright star is a bit lower in the Fujiyama.
    - No internal reflections in both.
    - At high magnification astigmatism is visible at the edge in the BCO, if you want to observe airy discs.The Fujiyama does a better job in this respect, even in a f/6.7 system.
    - Minor color at the edge in a BCO, in reflecting telescopes too.
    - Spartan observing like we are used to with orthoscopics (narrow field, eyerelief) is moderate in both.
    - Observing with BCO is a bit more comfortable because of the rubber eyeshield and the wider field.

    I recommend the Fuyijama if you want a bit more quality and the BCO if you go for more comfort.

    I agree with other members that you don't really need a barlow when 6mm is the shortest you need. A 6 mm will do the job just fine.
    Baader Zeiss, Baader VIP and Televue's are the better barlows that I know of. A pity they blow a hole in your wallet.
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