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Thread: Why the difference between scopes?

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    Philip F's Avatar
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    Default Why the difference between scopes?



    Hello,

    I have three Orion Edge On eyepieces that worked well in my skywatcher 130mm Newt. I got my hands on a Celestron Star Hopper 8" F6 Newt and my two Baadar seemed to give me the best performance. I recently gave the Star Hopper to a youth trying out astronomy and got a SkyQuest 8XT F5.9 for myself. In this scope the Orion's seem to be out-performing the Baader's. Can anyone offer an explanation, the Star Hopper and SkyQuest virtually the same scopes? I do want to add to my eyepieces, but am uncertain where to go with this apparent different between scopes.

    Other information includes, that I have Astigmatism, Keratoconus and Myopia. I generally view with glasses on.

    Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks,
    Sky-Watcher 130mm f5 Newtonian, Rebuilding a 6" f9 Newton 1st built 1981, Orion SkyQuest XT8" f5.9
    EP's: 6mm & 14.5 Orion Edge-On Planetaries, 10mm & 25 sky-watchers 9 & 18mm, Baader 13mm & 17mm, Antares 3X Barlow, Orion 27 mm edge-on and various filters.

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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    Collimation of the scope, enough cool down time, what type of eyepiece are the Baader?
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    Philip F's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    I still get the difference with cool down. I have the easiest time collimating the skyquest. The Baader's are 10 and 17mm hyperions. They were definitely the best in the star hopper. Thank you for answering.
    Last edited by Philip F; 04-30-2017 at 12:07 AM. Reason: missed a point
    Sky-Watcher 130mm f5 Newtonian, Rebuilding a 6" f9 Newton 1st built 1981, Orion SkyQuest XT8" f5.9
    EP's: 6mm & 14.5 Orion Edge-On Planetaries, 10mm & 25 sky-watchers 9 & 18mm, Baader 13mm & 17mm, Antares 3X Barlow, Orion 27 mm edge-on and various filters.

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    DeanD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    It is very difficult to make comment unless you can give a bit more information. What specifically is the difference between the eyepieces? Edge and/or centre sharpness, brightness, contrast, false colour...? They are all different focal lengths, and it is very hard to compare views at different powers. I don't know of anything that would mean eyepieces are different in f6 compared to f5.9 scopes, unless there is a problem with the mirror or the secondary. You seem to have cool-down and collimation covered.

    I assume the Baaders are Hyperions. I haven't used many of these, but I did find edge sharpness wasn't quite as good as for Long Perng planetary eyepieces (the same as the Orions) in my f5 scope (but they were of different focal lengths, like yours). I ended up getting an 18mm Radian instead of the 17mm Baader when I wanted a mid-range power and fov. (I now generally use a 13mm T6 Nagler, as it gives me the same, sharp, FOV as the 18mm Radian but at higher power.)

    I guess the other question is what are you looking for in additional eyepieces? You have a wide range of FL's and good quality eyepieces already. If you want a high power eyepiece for planetary work, then the Orthoscopics are arguably the sharpest, but with your eye problems you need good eye-relief, so the Orion planetaries or their re-badged rivals such as Long Perng and Williams are probably the way to go. Generally speaking your 6mm Orion, giving around 200x with a 1mm exit pupil is about at high power as you can go in normal seeing conditions. You might want to try a 5mm or 4mm for nights of exceptional seeing. Alternatively a 2x barlow with your 9mm and 10mm eyepieces.

    In terms of deep-sky viewing you seem to have it pretty well covered. I am not aware of the Celestron "UWA's" or a 27mm Orion Edge-on though. Are they the right types that you have? You might want to maximise your FOV with the scope, and this depends on whether you have a 2" focuser. For a 1 1/4" focuser a good quality 32mm plossl, like the Televue, will give you maximum true field. For 2" focusers you could look at the ES 82-degree range, which are very good value.

    All the best with the new scope.

    -Dean

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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    I will describe a possibility here that I have seen with several Orion OTA's that I have had. You may have a mirror in your new scope that has astigmatism caused by the mirror clamps being to tight. Most every Newtonian I have purchased from Orion has had this problem. They deliberately tighten them down for shipping reasons. You are seeing this because the Hyperions have a larger AFOV than the Orion Planetarys. The Hyperions in an F6 instrument tend to get a little soft towards the outer edge of the FOV and the added astigmatism from the pinched mirror is adding to this. The 55° field of the Orion Planetarys tends to mask the astigmatism but if you look real hard I think you will see it.

    The Star Hopper mirror may not have been pinched hence the noticeable difference. Simply remove the Orions mirror cell and loosen up those mirror clamp screws so that the rubber just barely touches the mirror. Re-install the mirror cell and have another look with the Hyperions. I think you will be pleased then.
    JJ

    PS: By the way..good eye for picking up such of a subtle difference in EP performance. Many people would not have even noticed.
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    Hi Dean,

    The center sharpness was my concern. The Baader's seem to just never quite get the focus I wanted. It seemed to slide from just under to just past. The Orion's showed definite cloud swirls in Jupiter.I found it with both planets and Deep Sky objects. A couple of weeks ago I was at my favourite site with excellent conditions. The Orion's showed definite cloud swirls in Jupiter's bands and mostly just bands in the Baader's. M51 likewise gave some detail in the 14.4mm Orion (Yes, very good night), but merely showed the two galaxies as smudges in the Baader 13. Similar feelings of being just off focus for M1, M81, M82, M92, M97, M109, M108.

    Yes, the Baader's are Hyperions. I had really liked them in the Star hopper, because the handled my eyes well, and I could focus in glasses the same as non-glasses wearers, at a mid-range price. I had been planning, to change over to Baader's and pass on the Orion's to a beginner, but this experience put a stop to that.

    A friend almost lives by the 13mm T6 Nagler, but it's bit a bit pricey for me. The Celestron's were from about 1990, and I gave them away with the Star Hopper, so I need to take them off my signature. The 27 mm Orion is correct, Orion has 2nd set of edge-on's that aren't planetaries. Also, clones of Williams Optics. Yes, I do hope to get something to take advantage of the 2" focuser.

    Again, thanks so much for the input. I will also try loosening the mirror, as Johnny suggests.

    Regards,

    Philip
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    Hi Johnny,

    Excellent advice. I will try loosening the mirror today.

    Thank you,

    Regards,

    Philip
    Sky-Watcher 130mm f5 Newtonian, Rebuilding a 6" f9 Newton 1st built 1981, Orion SkyQuest XT8" f5.9
    EP's: 6mm & 14.5 Orion Edge-On Planetaries, 10mm & 25 sky-watchers 9 & 18mm, Baader 13mm & 17mm, Antares 3X Barlow, Orion 27 mm edge-on and various filters.

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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    Baader Hyperion has much wider FOV (68 deg) compared to edge-on (55 deg). To the eye image in Edge-on may look sharper because it crops out peripheral portion of FOV which more effected by mirror's astigmatism and coma.

    Also, Hyperions are know to have softer focus at higher powers. In my side-by side tests 2x barlowed 14.5mm Edge-on indeed provided better planetary views compared to 2x barlowed 13mm Hyperion.
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    You could try the old small, medium, and large print pages taped on the distant fence test. In daylight with a stable target you can study all aberrations simultaneously, and begin to draw specific conclusions. If you put a few pin holes in a piece of scrap metal with a light behind it, you can compare the differences in your night vision with the daylight tests.
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    Default Re: Why the difference between scopes?

    Hello Bigzmey,

    Also a good point, though I still wonder why I did get a better the Baader's in the StarHopper. When I finally get clear skies again I'll try that test as well.

    Thank you.
    DeanD and Bigzmey like this.
    Sky-Watcher 130mm f5 Newtonian, Rebuilding a 6" f9 Newton 1st built 1981, Orion SkyQuest XT8" f5.9
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