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Thread: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

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    Tomislav's Avatar
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    Default ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?



    Hello everybody,

    some new EP decisions are on the way!
    Two weeks ago I had an exceptional night of phenomenal seeing. We were observing Jupiter, Eskimo nebula and Jupiter's ghost nebula with 12" dobsonians and Pentax XW 3,5 (borrowed, not to be confused) and the details at 430x were amazing! That night has changed my high-mag perception even more and made me consider mags of 400+ for that special nights. But I am not prepared to stretch my budget with Pentax, especially on an EP that (that few great nights nothwithstanding) will be rarely used. So I have narrowed the decision to Tele Vue 2x barlow or ES 4,7 mm.
    I'm having new ES 6,7 on the way, and that one is replacing the 6 mm SkyWatcher TMB Planetary clone. With the current lineup + 2x barlow I could have following mag. range above 200x: 224x, 340x, and 448x. With the es 4,7 I would have 224x and 320x.

    Pros - cons:
    Barlow combo is obviously giving more options. But I still have some prejudices about using barlows, although I think that may originate from my negative experience with cheap generic barlow (I think GSO or some Synta clone). Furthermore, with barlow option I am affraid that the gap from 224x to 340x would be too wide one.

    If I choose ES4,7 I would be confident that I have sweet EP to use when the sky permits and there won't be any need to fiddle in the dark with additional equipment (one more thing I really dislike about barlows). But in that case my mag. range will end at 320x and left me think "wish I had 100+ more" during that one speciall night that comes once a year.

    What are your opinions on this? To barlow or not to barlow? Is the 224-340 gap too wide? Will I loose something optically with (TeleVue) barlow? Thank you!!

    Last edited by Tomislav; 03-18-2013 at 10:41 PM.
    Skywatcher 12" F5 flextube dob, Skywatcher ST120 F5 achro on AZ4; TS 15x70 LE bino
    ES 82° 30 mm, TV Nagler T5 20mm, TV Ethos 13 mm, BCO 10 mm, Baader Morpheus 9 and 6,5 mm
    TV 2x barlow, Castell UHC & OIII filters

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    MitchAlsup's Avatar
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    Owning a Brarlow/PowerMate makes you arrange your EP collection around the magnification of the device. That is you don't want a 20mm EP and a 10mm EP if you are going to get a 2X barlow. At least one of them is redundant. Not woning a Barlow/PowerMate aleviates you from this agony (if there is any real agony).

    There are those who will stand by the statement that the EP alone gives better views (under the guise of fewer lenses). Properly polished and multi-coated lenses in modern EPs have a lot less of this problem than earlier genrations (up through mid 1990s when new generations of coatings came on line.)

    I don't stand by this, and have happily used my PowerMate for a decade and a half, even going so far as to unload my Ziess Abbé Orthos. I just did not spend as much time looking at planets to justify them remaining in my collection and returned to my Nagler T1s and T2s (now upgraded to Ethoi with a 9mm ES120 and 25mmES100).

    At the low power end of the spectrum, you can space EPs in a 2/3 ratio. At ths high power end, you need closer spacing because some nights will permit the 7mm whie others will only permit good images in the 8mm while others only the 9mm. But I'm no longer that into planets, manly they are just too bright in a 20"-er and are much more reasonable in a 6" refractor or 10" SCT/DOB.

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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    I have the 4.7 mm 82° EP and love it!! I bought it over the 6.7 mm which I see you have (as well as a barlow) - have you ever tried it (or your TV 13 mm) with your barlow?? I would think that would give you an idea whether to get a 4.7 or not. I have and Orion Shorty Plus Barlow (excellent barlow but no longer available) but have never tried it on any of my ES lenses.

    Good luck with whatever you go with

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    Dob; Orion Apex 102 Mak; Coronado PST. EP's: ES 4.7, 6.7, 11, 18 and 30mm 82° EPs; Baader 24mm 68°; Luminos 15mm 82°; Meade 8-24mm Zoom. Other: CG4+16" Orion Pier Extension; Celestron 20x80 binos etc;

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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    @ Mitch: thanks for barlow hint. If you were satisfied enough to unload Orthos, that speaks for itself. Otherwise I've been intensively rebuiulding my EP set for the past 6 monts around new 12" f4,9 dob and I am very much satisfied with this lineup, and I have nice 1,5x spacings between magnifications. Feels just about perfect. I am still worried about 224 to 340x jump though

    @ AbbN: ES 6,7 should arrive today, so I havent tired it yet. As for the barlow, it is cheapish one and yes I've been using it, but after I shifted to high end EPs (I also consider ES to be ones) that barlow no longer satisfies me. In normal 2x mode it is soft (that may also be due to overkill mag. of 400x on 8" when I last used it) and chromatic abberation all too evident. In 1,5x mode gives a bit better performance. I've tried the 1,5x barlow+Meade 6,7 UWA combo and the view was significantlly weaker compared to Pentax XW (maybe too tough a competition?). Have tried it with 13T6 (2x) and results were I would said inconcluisve. Maybe should try again and compare that view to ES 6,7, that would be a good idea it seems.
    To to draw I line, I've become meticolous and do not want to leave any space for doubts that my image is suffering from poor barlow. Or good one to that point
    Skywatcher 12" F5 flextube dob, Skywatcher ST120 F5 achro on AZ4; TS 15x70 LE bino
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    Well to be honest I do not like barlows all that much BUT I have ben in this hobby since I was a cub (not boy) scout in the early 1950s' and todays barlows are all vastly superior then the ones offered even 20 years ago..

    And although I am not frugal or cheap I will spend good money on any eyepiece that I can not at least hope to be able to use on a good night and maybe even on a above average normal night.... So I always pick an eyepiece that I know I can use on the majority of nights and can use it in conjunction with a barlow on those nights where seeing is good enough to support more magnification...

    I also thing the spread of 224 to 340x is too wide... mainly because 300x is NOT normally even feasible under my
    skies on above normal nights...but 250x 270x sure is especially on the moon...

    My only other comment is that I no longer use a DOB and most of my scopes track so I have absolutely no need (or want) for an ultra wide angle high powered eyepiece...(and BTW...I do use Pentax XW's for high power...LOL)

    Bob G.
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    The 4.7mm Explore is a fantastic eyepiece.
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    Quote Originally Posted by hal2000 View Post
    The 4.7mm Explore is a fantastic eyepiece.
    Yes it is and I've never regretted getting it. Oddly, as I've mentioned in various other posts, it gets the most use in my PST........
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomislav View Post
    @ Mitch: thanks for barlow hint. If you were satisfied enough to unload Orthos, that speaks for itself. Otherwise I've been intensively rebuiulding my EP set for the past 6 monts around new 12" f4,9 dob and I am very much satisfied with this lineup, and I have nice 1,5x spacings between magnifications. Feels just about perfect. I am still worried about 224 to 340x jump though
    Yes, this is about the point where tigher spacings are required/desired. Your 6.7 gives about 224X and a 4.4 gives about 340. The ideal spacing would put 2 EPs between these magnifications (6.6->5.8->5.1->4.4) but I doubt you will find such a collection. So the backup would be something like (6.6->5.5->4.4).

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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    Abb

    Mine gets most use in my mate's 14" dob! Every time we are out, he's asking to borrow it.

    If I ask him why he doesn't just buy one, he replies "What's the point in that when you have one?"

    Mind you, if you've never seen the Eskimo nebula in a 14" dob, with this eyepiece, you haven't lived. Next time you go to a star party, take it along with you and bung it in a big dob.
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    Default Re: ES 82* 4,7 mm OR 2x Barlow?

    You would never regret the 4.7mm. I use it everywhere when seeing is good including my Dob (for planets and splitting doubles) and Lunt 35Ha.
    BTW I have used a TV 2X Barlow with my 6.7mm on a couple of rare nights to get to 200X in my refractor. Really nice combo.
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