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    Default Dark Matter just disappeared!!! Now Dark Energy?



    The "Missing Matter" problem which may in part have led to the concept of "Dark Matter" has reportedly been solved with the an Aussie finding the missing matter - which turns out to not be all that dark. We'll see if it stands up to further study. And yeah, I know that it may not really lead to the eventual elimination of the idea of "Dark Matter", but one can hope?:

    Aussie student finds universe's 'missing mass' - Yahoo! News

    Now if she'll just work on the Dark Energy thing?

    I keep having this niggling idea that the singularity within black holes is sort of the structure/matrix of the universe and they'll find that the energy that disappears into black holes is what is driving expansion. OK, OK, I've not even tried to figure if it would be enough to account for the "Cosmological Constant". But it would be a hoot if our Universe were just one big singularity which contains its own black holes which contain itself? Sort of a stretch but it makes me think a little of Mobius. . .
    Last edited by OleCuss; 05-27-2011 at 08:54 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I should probably be more clear. I hate the idea of Dark Matter and of Dark Energy. I want someone to solve them because invoking the concept of the unseen and the unknowable is not something that I find scientifically acceptable.

    But the "Missing Matter" and the "Dark Matter" issues aren't necessarily linked and solving the "Missing Matter" problem may never lead to the resolution of the "Dark Matter" issue.

    But the flip side of the issue is that if they have found matter they've not previously been able to locate that lends me hope that they will find additional non-dark matter which will eliminate the need to invoke "Dark Matter".

    And I don't know anyone who really believes that Black Holes are as fundamental to the structure of the universe as I suggested or that they could explain Dark Energy or expansion. But I like the idea anyway, so there.
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    Dark Energy? Easy, it’s the photons of energy pushing against the edge of the universe.
    Explains why it didn’t overpower gravity until some time after the Big Bang – The primordial dust had to clear and enough stars had to be born to generate enough photons.
    Which means once all the stars go out and photon production stops, the universe will collapse due to gravity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pederv View Post
    Dark Energy? Easy, its the photons of energy pushing against the edge of the universe.
    Explains why it didnt overpower gravity until some time after the Big Bang The primordial dust had to clear and enough stars had to be born to generate enough photons.
    Which means once all the stars go out and photon production stops, the universe will collapse due to gravity.

    I like!!! Gravity rules in the end!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pederv View Post
    Dark Energy? Easy, its the photons of energy pushing against the edge of the universe.
    Explains why it didnt overpower gravity until some time after the Big Bang The primordial dust had to clear and enough stars had to be born to generate enough photons.
    Which means once all the stars go out and photon production stops, the universe will collapse due to gravity.
    It couldn't be that. Space is accelerating faster than light, so it couldn't be photons pushing out the edge of the universe.
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    Actually, I don't think he was being totally serious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
    I want someone to solve them because invoking the concept of the unseen and the unknowable is not something that I find scientifically acceptable.
    I don't think that anyone has suggested that they are unseeable or unknowable.

    It is true that we haven't "seen" them in the literal sense of detecting visible photons from them, because they're dark. Being unseen is pretty much what being dark is all about. But in the looser sense of being able to detect them, yes we can see them. We know that they are there because we detect their influence.

    We do not yet know what they are, but that does not make them unknowable, merely currently unknown.

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    Keith:

    At this time we don't know how to characterize "Dark Matter" or "Dark Energy". What we do know is that our current cosmological and physical theories don't work if we do not assume that there is "Dark Matter" and "Dark Energy". So we assume that they exist and now try to figure out what they are and find a way to characterize them.

    It is also logical to assume that our cosmological and/or physical theories are in error and that is why our numbers/observations don't match with theory.

    Or maybe I could say that God is the cause of the apparent discrepancy?

    Now don't get me wrong, I happen to think that our cosmological theories are roughly correct, but I'm quite uncomfortable with them.

    So partly because of that I speculate that black holes are more fundamental to the structure of the universe than is presently believed. But I have essentially nothing to suggest I'm right (which is why I consider it to be speculation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
    It is also logical to assume that our cosmological and/or physical theories are in error and that is why our numbers/observations don't match with theory.
    This is that part that I have the most trouble accepting. I do not think this assumption is logical at all.

    It would be logical to assume that a speculation is in error (even in the absence of data ). It might even be logical to assume that a theory that had a little bit of supporting data was in error if there were a significant body of contrary data. But the Standard Model in physics has so much evidence to support it and so little contrary evidence that it cannot be considered to be in error at all. To do so would be quite illogical.

    It is, however, well-known to be incomplete. Just how incomplete it is is unknown, and indeed may never be known. But that is a far cry from being in error.

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    I understand the argument, and do remember that I actually still believe that the Big Bang cosmology and physical theories are pretty much spot on - implying that there is matter and energy which are not yet accounted for.

    But to me the primary test as to whether a theory or model is correct is whether it accurately predicts outcomes or items/situations/etc.

    In this case, it's all failing rather remarkably. We look around at all the matter and energy that we can detect and it turns out that our theories and models don't match the observational data.

    So we do the logical thing. We reject our data and assume facts not in evidence to make things fit our theory/model. After all, our theory/model can't be in error - so the data must be in error.

    Well, I still think that the data is likely to be in error. We're just not good enough to detect all the matter and energy. But I still entertain a healthy skepticism about our models and theories because I know that as of yet the predictions don't match our observable reality.

    So I speculate (with admittedly insufficient evidence) that black holes may (when properly understood) account for at least a good portion of the "Dark Matter" and "Dark Energy". I find it entertaining while I wait for someone to prove me wrong.
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