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  1. #11
    KathyNS's Avatar
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    Maybe I was too hard on you. So, I have done the math for you.

    altitude 39000 feet
    viewing angle 45 degrees above horizon
    viewing distance 661851.9472 inches
    lettering height 12 inches
    apparent letter height 8.485281374 inches
    angular size of lettering 0.000734561 degrees
    angular size of lettering 2.644420593 seconds

    For comparison
    angular size of Mars at conjunction 3.5 seconds

    So, what you want is a telescope that can easily resolve detail on Mars while it is at its worst viewing opportunity. Given that the angular size of the lettering is only 3/4 of the size of Mars, you actually need a better telescope than that. And given that you need to be able to do it in horrible atmospheric conditions, you are getting up into serious professional quality equipment, and even then it might not do the job.

    Now, assuming you have a honking big $30,000 scope, you still have to be able to track a fast moving target with it while at extreme magnification. Good luck!

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  3. #12
    WWPierre's Avatar
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    I went to the video and watched enough to get a sense of the issue.

    I think that jet vapor trails are pretty much vapor trails, and sometimes persist for a long while under certain atmospheric conditions.

    Military chaff is pretty much as offensive as confetti at a wedding.

    Breathable aluminum particles? Considering what you breathe walking down a city street.....probably fairly inoffensive.

    I am worried most about tampering with a cycle and overcorrecting. Ever use a potter's wheel?

    If there are secret projects, can they be exposed and stopped? Maybe, but probably not. What if China decided to do it unilaterally? Then they wouldn't have to clean up their ecological act.

    Que sera sera. There are much more worrisome situations out there: Pakastan is unstable, North Korea is sociopathic, and they have nukes.
    Last edited by WWPierre; 12-05-2010 at 11:59 PM.
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  5. #13
    neovida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WWPierre View Post
    I went to the video and watched enough to get a sense of the issue.

    I think that jet vapor trails are pretty much vapor trails, and sometimes persist for a long while under certain atmospheric conditions.

    Military chaff is pretty much as offensive as confetti at a wedding.

    Breathable aluminum particles? Considering what you breathe walking down a city street.....probably fairly inoffensive.

    I am worried most about tampering with a cycle and overcorrecting. Ever use a potter's wheel?

    If there are secret projects, can they be exposed and stopped? Maybe, but probably not. What if China decided to do it unilaterally? Then they wouldn't have to clean up their ecological act.

    Que sera sera. There are much more worrisome situations out there: Pakastan is unstable, North Korea is sociopathic, and they have nukes.
    The problem is that there are so many worrisome situations these days that one really has to just choose one and do whatever you can to try to mitigate it before going on to the next issue.

    If people want to label it as conspiracy theory and ignore it it's because they don't know the truth and frankly do not want to know.

    I picked this one primarily because I made some suggestions regarding a logistical investigation to G. Edward Griffin and he asked me to put together a proposal. If you're not familiar with his work he is not only involved with this issue but is a very well known author and researcher, and is known for his meticulous research.

  6. #14
    Joe Lalumia's Avatar
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    Simply put--- for 99.9% of the amateur Astronomy community their telescopes would not help you one bit. Most of this has already been said:

    1. Tracking a fast (and variable) moving object.

    2. Resolution needed is outside the scope of amateur telescopes.

    You would need one of those sophisticated rocket launch tracking camera and a LARGE telescope you do this. PLUS some sort of specialized tracking software probably using a laser to get range and speed on the airplane, so the scope would accurately track it while photographing the tail numbers--
    ETX 125PE, Stellarvue 80mm BV & Televue TelePod tripod,
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    TelescopeMan Web Site

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    search for W1XWX to see my amateur radio web site

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by neovida View Post
    The problem is that there are so many worrisome situations these days that one really has to just choose one and do whatever you can to try to mitigate it before going on to the next issue.

    If people want to label it as conspiracy theory and ignore it it's because they don't know the truth and frankly do not want to know.

    I picked this one primarily because I made some suggestions regarding a logistical investigation to G. Edward Griffin and he asked me to put together a proposal. If you're not familiar with his work he is not only involved with this issue but is a very well known author and researcher, and is known for his meticulous research.
    I don't know Griffin, but I do know my father. It was he who took me outdoors in the 1950s and pointed at the contrails in the sky and told me about the jet planes flying above. He explained how the jet engines produced water vapor that froze at high altitudes, producing what we saw as white lines in the sky.

    Strange, he didn't mention anything about secret experiments to alter the environment. But that was the 1950s.
    Fly me to
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  9. #16
    sxinias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neovida View Post
    A conspiracy yes, but not by me. Reserve your judgment of me unless you can prove I'm wrong.

    This is a false hypotheses. You are the one making the claim therefore the burden of proof is on you not others.
    SXINIAS

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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxinias View Post
    This is a false hypotheses. You are the one making the claim therefore the burden of proof is on you not others.
    Well stated....hear, hear.

    Please understand: you've entered a forum for enthusiasts of astronomy, of telescopes, of science, and of discovery. The reason, I believe, folks are acting a tad on the offensive is your request borders on exploitation of our society.

    What I would suggest is going on a forum for geo-engineering and ask the same question...you are bound to find those who believe in your cause, are willing to assist, and are also amateur astronomers.

    But, I believe Keith has given you a gift...it is impossible to accomplish with the equipment most of us amateur astronomers have.

    Now, if you'd like to ask about a perfect setup for yourself, I'm sure you will get more than positive responses.
    Allen
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  12. #18
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    I would imagine that the extremely dangerous dihydride monoxide that is formed by the action you have described will eventually come back to Earth and will increase the levels of that very toxic and deadly substance of which we already have so much of. Kills thousands of people every year and intoxication by such can likewise be deadly. But I doubt if we can solve those problems as the solution would be much worse.

    "There is nothing new under the Sun." But boy when the Sun goes down, what a view.

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  14. #19
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    I doubt that we would be able to see numbers on the aircraft, but it does bring up an interesting thought. I wonder what can be seen on an aircraft? I don't think it would be that difficult to figure out. We track sattelites, the ISS, shuttle, etc., why not aircraft? They regularly fly between us and our targets. They often use predictable flyways with predictable timing. For some of us, they are much lower than 30,000 ft. When I am in Phoenix, I use binoculars to identify the colors and airlines.

    But why is it necessary? They are in controlled airspace. You can call a number that tracks the aircraft you are interested in and tells you where it is in its flightpath. This way you can know when to pick up family members. If an airliner veers off course, all the nearby towers will register the variance. I think there would be an easier way to identify out of place planes, than to use telescopes. There is probably some way to use the internet.

    We occasionally get a picture of an airliner. It is usually just the shape and vapor trail.

    On a side note, a few weeks ago a plane came close to my plane and we flew right under the vapor trail of the previous plane. It was an interesting view. I wish I had my camera.
    Last edited by jrkirkham; 12-06-2010 at 01:00 PM. Reason: added a couple of lines.
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  15. #20
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    There are websites that actually track all of the planes out there from their radio transmissions, so why would you need to do this at all? Or are these secret stealth planes that don't appear on any of the massive number of publicly available online records?

    And on the conspiracy theory itself: I've not even bothered to watch the video. I looked up this Griffin guy, saw the number of times the word conspiracy was used, saw 'miracle cure for cancer' and 'refuted by most scientists', and abandoned it as a lost cause

 

 
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