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  1. #1
    georgebiddleairy's Avatar
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    Default 'New' unknown Nebula at 4 Cygni



    Hi,

    My friend Al Howard and I have, as two San Jose amateurs, discovered and confirmed a 'new' formerly unknown reflection nebula coincident with 4 Cygni, at the Cygnus/Lyra border (about 7 and a half degrees from the Ring Nebula.) This reflection nebula has been photographed by Howard this summer, and his image confirms traces found on Palomar plates--it's no artifact! An amateur in Finland has viewed and drawn it with merely an 8 inch scope. I used a 10 inch to visually discover it in 2007 in the Santa Cruz mountains. It's visible now--try it! Full details, including the confirmations by professional astronomers and all pertinent data, are found here:
    I am told by your moderating machine that I am not allowed to post the URL for the long article that contains ALL details. Is there any way around that? I'd love for others to try viewing/imaging it.

    Steve Waldee
    Last edited by WWPierre; 09-02-2010 at 05:11 AM.

  2. #2
    WWPierre's Avatar
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    Default

    Sorry, I didn't edit your post, just fumblefingered the wrong button. We moderators have no control over our software gatekeeper. If you write it out and substitute the word dot for dots or put spaces before and after the dots, I can edit it for you so it will work.

    Or tell us about yourself in 5 or 6 chapters, so the software will trust you.

    I have my newly re-furbished Royal Astro 76 set up right now waiting for Jupiter to come over the mountain, so I'll be around for a while, if you want to do this in real time.
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  3. #3
    georgebiddleairy's Avatar
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    Default

    Full details, coordinates, diameter, viewing suggestions, etc. are available in my lengthy article about my discovery of the 4 Cygni nebula, and Al Howard's confirming image:

    try typing an h

    then a t

    then another t

    then a good old p

    and a colon followed by two forward slashes!

    Then...(leave out the ampersands between lines, and join up)

    faintfuzzies

    &

    dot zoomshare

    dot com forward slash

    4-cygni forward slash

    4_cygni_nebula

    dot

    a big old html

    !! Does that make ANY kind of sense? ! (smiley face here)

    Try this and see if you get the website '4 Cygni Nebula' and if so, please replace that gibberish with the actual true 100% gen-you-wine URL!

    Thanks,
    Steve Waldee

  4. #4
    georgebiddleairy's Avatar
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    Default

    "tell us about yourself in 5, 6 chapters" ... hah!

    Martin knows me very well, and I was on his moderated.sci.astro.amateur soon after he formed it.

    My wife and my friends have been trying for YEARS to keep me from telling people about myself in 5 or 6 chapters. I could go on for maybe 6 Bulwer-Lyutton length novels if you'd like (you would NOT!) so it's best that I just let you sort that out for me...

    Best,
    Steve

  5. #5
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    Default

    Here you go ...

    New reflection Nebula

    Good diligent working there , congrats

    Clear Skies

    pete
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  7. #6
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    Fascinating story, Steve.

    Congratulations on your discovery. I am impressed with your dedication to the scientfic method and your diligence in standing up for your priority in discovery.

    I am doubtful that I could directly observe your nebula from my location or image it, but I'll give it a shot. So far, while not a great improvement, my astrophoto efforts seem to be giving results comparable to using an aperture of 10 to 12 inches visually. So there is a "dim" chance that I might be able to get a hint of your nebula in my little refractor.
    There are some folks on here with better glass and darker skies and much more experience at astrophotography who you might also be meeting here. Try to get them interested in taking a shot !!
    Personally, I like pretty pictures, but I am also a scientist and I appreciate and respect the power and utility of photography as one of the prime tools of the science...so I don't mind taking time off from trying to make "pretty pictures of stars" in order to add to knowledge. I am surprised that you had such difficulty at first getting anyone to take a look at your discovery.

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  8. #7
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    Default

    Thanks very much -- and to Pete, above, too!

    Perhaps now I've posted enough that the "engine" will allow me to give the actual unbowdlerized article URL; here goes:
    ...no; that's been blocked; sorry.

    Yes, I've tried, purely as an amateur, to follow some of the scientific method. Some correlations to this 'reflection nebula apparently near a bright object' have been suggested to me by Dr. David Malin (I'm asking for his permission to add his response at the end of my article, so that may appear in it at the end, soon.)

    Here are his suggested deep southern AAO images, done with the same design 48 inch Schmidt: for example the sky N and S of Cen A:
    no; sorry: all of Malin's links to AAO images have been blocked; sorry.

    Previously I had long enjoyed trying to "pry out" faint nebulae near very bright objects. Planetaries in globular clusters; nebulae just offset a bit from bright stars (such as Haro 1-36 or Abell 12/PK 198-06.1); faint galaxies that are a couple of minutes from a brilliant star. When I realized after my eye discovery of the sort of anomalous 'shape' of 4 Cygni's big light halo (very irregular, to my perception) that this was caused by the presence of something rather strange in line-of-sight proximity, I then looked at it again and could actually now see a trace of the protrusion to the SW, perceiving that, specifically, and not merely an irregular shaped glow (using 300-600x); so if it shows up in a 10 inch telescope (and perhaps with less clarity in an 8 inch) it might well be discernible in a slightly smaller aperture, very high quality, totally achromatic refractor. I only have an achromat (4.7" f/5) which is pretty marginal for such a trial, but a good apo (a state of the art Astro-Physics or comparable instrument, of 6-8 inches) would be thing ideal thing with which to try!

    So, it would be useful to attempt to get something of an approximate minimal aperture determination, visually--though every time any such "rule" is fixed, it's soon broken!

    Steve Waldee

  9. #8
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    Incidentally, the post I just tried to send, including links given to me by Dr. David Malin, wasn't allowed by the engine controlling this forum, which blocked such URLs. I understand WHY this is done (to avoid spamming); but I wonder if the function might possibly be fine-tuned?

    This has happened to me, repeatedly, when I have tried to go on forums. More than a year ago I attempted to alert observers that the McNeil nebula, near M78, had brightened temporarily and that I had, in fact, been able to see if visually with my 11 inch scope. I haven't contributed to EVERY such forum on the Net, and generally just stick to posting articles on my own websites in the past, due to the difficulties in dealing with forums (some of which allow some pretty revolting flames.) But, try as I might, I could NOT post the information about the McNeil nebula! I was told "try 5 posts and you will get in" but, as per usual, that failed. After six, seven, eight tries, some websites which use exactly the same template as this present forum kept blocking the info.

    So I was not able to cite anything useful except to say very generally, you can go see it. It was *extremely* disappointing to me, and worked against the interests of my fellow observers.

    So: can anybody FINE TUNE this algorithm so that almost insurmountable hurdles are not thrown in our way? The joking suggestion to post 5 or 6 chapters about my life wasn't something I was anxious to do--JUST to be able to tell potential colleagues that they probably COULD see a new nebula,if they had the information in hand.

    Best,
    Steve Waldee

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    I think you just have to have 5 posts to be able to post URLs. You tried posting in your 4th post (by my count), and perhaps your 5th, but did you try posting them in your sixth? Try again please.

    This is partially why Pierre said "in chapters": so you would quickly accumulate enough posts to be "trusted" by the forum software. It takes 5 posts minimum.

    I read your story of previous internet woes. I don't mean to put you off, but perhaps there is a tinge of paranoia in there....Earthlink sucks, but I don't really think you or your information or links are being selectively blocked. That would be going a bit far, and as a scientist, surely you would need "extraordinary evidence" to convince yourself that was really happening.

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    Default

    Hi Steve, welcome to the forums.

    I can understand your excitement to post your findings on forums including this one but you have to understand that 5 posts or even 10 posts is not really a lot considering the amount of people (not including bots - we block tens of thousands every day!) that join popular forums like this just to add a link, promote a product, or simply spam the site with material we really cannot show to our visitors. That is why images, links, private messages, and other tidbits are moderated to new members.

    I guess its the same with people knocking on your front door, you at least want to know who they are, and if you trust them before you let them into your home.

    Sadly the internet has changed, and from BBS days it requires quite a bit of security as even captchas (the security images that protect forums like this) have been hacked (are bypassed). We simply do not have the time to moderate spam in real-time without our engine which has stopped millions of spam posts (i am serious), and I do not expect anyone to volunteer to do this either as it would be a full time job for several people.

    The algorithm works extremely well and although is a minor inconvenience to a few new members (usually when they immediately try to post links or images as you did - so often no one has this issue out of over 50 new members a day), and I believe we are the fastest growing astronomy community on the net. I hope you understand and stay with us as you are already passed the period of auto-moderation.

    Congrats on the discovery, hope to hear more from you.
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