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Thread: Big Shell?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Big Shell?



    There are conceptual problems with the "grenade" analogy which are shared with the idea of the "Big Bang".

    BB is spoken of as if it were an explosion or detonation. It isn't. Some 13-14 Billion years ago an expansion started and it continues to this day. So a good grenade analogy has to have continual expansion blowing away from the grenade location. Better than a grenade would be a spherical wind source.

    So a person with confetti thinking that there is no wind writes down conservation of momentum for dropping the confetti. No wind so it should just drop when released with zero velocity. Instead with grenades or fans they see some drift of the confetti and realize that the way they wrote the conservation laws is wrong. They have a choice 1) to decide that there is a preferred location in the universe and conservation laws don't apply or 2) investigate to see if something hinky in the neighborhood disturbed the experiment.

    The problem with the shell model of the BB is the same. It establishes a preferred direction (toward the center of the shell). So one DOES NOT get the same results for momentum conservation tests since deviations of the directions pointing back to the center induce preferred directions which are not observed. The shell model is observationally distinct from the standard model of cosmology and in particular it predicts that aside from Doppler differences in the CMB due to our MW galaxy's motion there should be a hot side and a cold side to the shell. Toward the outside of the shell it should be cooler (more expansion has happened) than inside the shell.

    This shell model has been published

    http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/...3/37103148.pdf

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...vity_Framework

    It's rubbish and does not work out all the consequences. Heck it's not even General Relativistic and cannot therefore explain things like gravitational lensing! No one is paying this old (10 years) idea any attention because it is unworthy of any. It cannot explain the current observations.
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  3. #72
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trombatissimo View Post
    "What we've got here is failure to communicate" - The Captain (Strother Martin), Luke (Paul Newman), Rev. Pious Blue (paraphrase by Zero Mostel), Hank Moody (David Duchovny). If you want credits for the actual authors - that's why Google was invented.

    We live in a world of increasingly specialized areas of expertise. People like Carl Sagan, Steven Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson intrinsically understand the importance of simplifying without "dumbing it down" and they process a rare gift to present their knowledge to the general public in a manner that is informatively entertaining while maintaining its scientific validity and accuracy. Someone may think that they understand a concept because they have been given an explanation that satisfies their immediate curiosity about one characteristic of the concept. When one who comprehends many more aspects and implications of this concept is presenting a simplified answer to address one element of the greater idea, the result is frequently more confusion.

    This discussion seems to be heading in that direction. The more that you try to visualize or reduce an idea to a tangible or concrete entity, it is more likely that you are going to obscure or distort the basic concept. An event that occurred everywhere at the same time, can not be placed at a point of origin. You are trying to measure something that has no dimension. As n_F_A said, your example is fine if you visualize an "infinite grenade", but an "infinite grenade" is no more graspable than a "Big Bang".
    But I ask again, why must this "grenade" be infinite? How can we know? Do we really have the tools to discriminate between the truly infinite, and the fantastically large? I realize that popular science authors often simplify too much, and freely admit I don't understand all the concepts. My question is, does anyone? Can anyone?

    Guess I have a problem with cosmological authority which claims to "know" so much, perhaps more than meager evidence warrants. Maybe it's because grants are larger or more likely for "positive" results? Saying "it is thus" would seem a smarter career move than "perhaps it is thus, but on the other hand..."
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  4. #73
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    The shell model is observationally distinct from the standard model of cosmology and in particular it predicts that aside from Doppler differences in the CMB due to our MW galaxy's motion there should be a hot side and a cold side to the shell. Toward the outside of the shell it should be cooler (more expansion has happened) than inside the shell.
    Okay, that's certainly something to give pause to my shell enthusiasm. I was wondering whether the idea was published, thanks for the links. I may become slightly wiser for this discussion. Thus, a half-full glass
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymondhow View Post
    But I ask again, why must this "grenade" be infinite? How can we know? Do we really have the tools to discriminate between the truly infinite, and the fantastically large? I realize that popular science authors often simplify too much, and freely admit I don't understand all the concepts. My question is, does anyone? Can anyone?
    Yes the community of folks who are not crackpots understand the math and know. We have the tools to set error bars around the truly infinite that sets limits on how large your fantastically large would have to be and they are ginormously huge. There are zero observational results pointing in the direction of not infinite.

    The standard model of cosmology and its parameters are here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda...del#Parameters

    Your question (infinite or not) boils down to one parameter the curvature fluctuation parameter which says that the deviation of the universe from flatness (and infinity) fluctuates by less than a few parts in a billion.

    Guess I have a problem with cosmological authority which claims to "know" so much, perhaps more than meager evidence warrants. Maybe it's because grants are larger or more likely for "positive" results? Saying "it is thus" would seem a smarter career move than "perhaps it is thus, but on the other hand..."
    Ah well there is no helping a conspiracy theorist. This expresses utter ignorance of how science works. One gets rewards and prizes for upsetting the applecart unlike politics and corporate commerce.

    I'm no longer having fun with this thread since it is becoming so intellectually dishonest and conspiracy ridden. I'm done.
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    My what a spirited discussion.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    This shell model has been published

    http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/...3/37103148.pdf

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...vity_Framework

    It's rubbish and does not work out all the consequences. Heck it's not even General Relativistic and cannot therefore explain things like gravitational lensing! No one is paying this old (10 years) idea any attention because it is unworthy of any. It cannot explain the current observations.
    I did find a much newer page discussing a shell model, from 2016
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...iple_Big_Bangs
    They are promoting something with multiple concentric bangs, something I hadn't considered.

    Anyway, interesting to see the shell idea was taken seriously. Yeah, it may well be rubbish... as may so much else, out there on the bleeding edge of knowledge.
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    Ah well there is no helping a conspiracy theorist. This expresses utter ignorance of how science works. One gets rewards and prizes for upsetting the applecart unlike politics and corporate commerce.

    I'm no longer having fun with this thread since it is becoming so intellectually dishonest and conspiracy ridden. I'm done.
    I proposed no conspiracies, merely suggesting there's a natural tendency for humans to gravitate towards comforting certainty, perhaps leading to greater reward for those who seem to provide it. Being on the bleeding edge, upsetting such an applecart would not be easy. When honest questioning is shot down by accusations of dishonesty, that too can tend to stifle dissent. So yeah, I'm done too.
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymondhow View Post
    I proposed no conspiracies, merely suggesting there's a natural tendency for humans to gravitate towards comforting certainty, perhaps leading to greater reward for those who seem to provide it. Being on the bleeding edge, upsetting such an applecart would not be easy. When honest questioning is shot down by accusations of dishonesty, that too can tend to stifle dissent. So yeah, I'm done too.
    I'll respond since you won't let it drop. There was this rich passage:

    Guess I have a problem with cosmological authority which claims to "know" so much, perhaps more than meager evidence warrants. Maybe it's because grants are larger or more likely for "positive" results? Saying "it is thus" would seem a smarter career move than "perhaps it is thus, but on the other hand..."
    Reads like the anti science claptrap of a conspiracy theorist to me. Your logic in general seems to follow the thought patterns of extremist political discourse which ignores facts and logic in preference to a conspiratorial view of science. This is a common trope of cult pseudoscientists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

    Persistence in belief when falsified by facts and mathematics is the hallmark. That is the nature of the dishonesty in this exchange. I've stopped laughing at and have instead banned media (left and right) that engage in pseudo logic. It has become too dangerous to ignore. I don't have any patience with it here.
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    That's rather funny, because I've been a strong opponent of pseudoscience for most of my life. Simply proposing ideas in an informal setting and looking for feedback, does not a pseudo-scientist make. I leave it to others to decide where the extremism lies. Peace, out.
    Last edited by Raymondhow; 03-13-2018 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Big Shell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymondhow View Post
    That's rather funny, because I've been a strong opponent of pseudoscience for most of my life. Simply proposing ideas in an informal setting and looking for feedback, does not a pseudo-scientist make. I leave it to others to decide where the extremism lies. Peace, out.
    Pseudoscience lies with rejecting data and the logical interpretation of it which you did at many points in this discussion. Another example of a tactic employed by pseudoscientist is exemplified by your complaint that the Noether Theorem article didn't mention the Big Bang: a deflection tactic familiar from political extremist propaganda. Your complaint there was logically equivalent to requiring that the statement "1 + 1 = 2" mention the Big Bang in order to be applicable.

    I will freely admit to being a rigorist when it comes to logic. I do not deny data or correctly formulated logic. Data denial and ignoring the logic of an argument.... I leave that strictly to political extremists and pseudoscience fans.
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