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Thread: Black hole inside another black hole?

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    Question Black hole inside another black hole?



    Question: If black hole can be inside of other black hole (with point of view General Relativity)? I am talking about rotating or/and charge external black hole. Does theory allow black hole inside black hole? If yes, does the observer located inside external black hole able to detect internal black hole?
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Theory differs for rotating BHs and supposedly there is some kind of region outside the event horizon where a body is subjected to the effects of extreme frame dragging and separates into two virtual masses. If this schema is applied to a second BH (oh no, is it rotating as well? ), it seems the newcomer would become schizophrenic and require cosmic doses of Thorazine.

    Or, the two could simply merge and the outside observers would only witness a ridiculously large and gaudy display of energy. I'm not sure anyone really knows, but here is a web site (made with NSF funding) with a BH "flight simulator":

    Inside Black Holes

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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim K View Post
    Theory differs for rotating BHs and supposedly there is some kind of region outside the event horizon where a body is subjected to the effects of extreme frame dragging and separates into two virtual masses. If this schema is applied to a second BH (oh no, is it rotating as well? ), it seems the newcomer would become schizophrenic and require cosmic doses of Thorazine.

    Or, the two could simply merge and the outside observers would only witness a ridiculously large and gaudy display of energy. I'm not sure anyone really knows, but here is a web site (made with NSF funding) with a BH "flight simulator":

    Inside Black Holes
    Thanks for link. Very interesting website. Nice simulations.
    Let’s explain my logic. There are can be stable or qusi-stable orbits massive or massless particle inside rotating/charged black hole. Potentially, collisions of such particle can create internal black hole (for example, mini black hole). The problem is that inside external black hole we will have two different types of singularities: one from external black hole, other from internal one. And question is does this possible? Also interesting your question - What happen when such singularities merged? If there is restriction (may be from Penrose diagrams) for existence of such “matreshka” black hole structure.


    I tried search in Google, but not founded answer. Most article in Google show Universe inside black hole, but this theory already outside standard General Relativity. BH simulation also popular Google answer on question "black hole inside black hole", but did not see any attempt to simulate such situation yet. So may be somebody knows if some restriction does exist from GR for black hole inside black hole.
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by astroval View Post
    Question: If black hole can be inside of other black hole (with point of view General Relativity)? I am talking about rotating or/and charge external black hole. Does theory allow black hole inside black hole? If yes, does the observer located inside external black hole able to detect internal black hole?
    There is nothing stopping a stellar mass black hole falling into a supermassive black hole, so I really don't see why not. As for the observer detecting it, I would say yes. The spacetime curvature would be different from a single black hole, and that's probably the right definition of "detectable".
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim K View Post
    Theory differs for rotating BHs and supposedly there is some kind of region outside the event horizon where a body is subjected to the effects of extreme frame dragging and separates into two virtual masses. If this schema is applied to a second BH (oh no, is it rotating as well? ), it seems the newcomer would become schizophrenic and require cosmic doses of Thorazine.

    Or, the two could simply merge and the outside observers would only witness a ridiculously large and gaudy display of energy. I'm not sure anyone really knows, but here is a web site (made with NSF funding) with a BH "flight simulator":
    Thanks so much! Very beautiful simulations......

    The link below is to a Cornell / Caltech simulation of the evolution of a black hole binary system into a single black hole through emission of gravitational radiation.

    Binary Black Holes Orbit and Collide [720p] - YouTube
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by astroval View Post
    Thanks for link. Very interesting website. Nice simulations.
    Let’s explain my logic. There are can be stable or qusi-stable orbits massive or massless particle inside rotating/charged black hole. Potentially, collisions of such particle can create internal black hole (for example, mini black hole). The problem is that inside external black hole we will have two different types of singularities: one from external black hole, other from internal one. And question is does this possible? Also interesting your question - What happen when such singularities merged? If there is restriction (may be from Penrose diagrams) for existence of such “matreshka” black hole structure.


    I tried search in Google, but not founded answer. Most article in Google show Universe inside black hole, but this theory already outside standard General Relativity. BH simulation also popular Google answer on question "black hole inside black hole", but did not see any attempt to simulate such situation yet. So may be somebody knows if some restriction does exist from GR for black hole inside black hole.
    It is interesting to think about, for sure. The only simulations I have seen are for similar size / similar mass black holes combining into one remaining black hole. I've posted a link in response to Tim K's simulation link. What happens for similar sized black holes during the merger is that asymmetries get radiated away in the form of gravitational radiation and one is left with only one black hole.

    I have not seen simuations done with black hole masses that are very different, by say a factor of 100 or more. It is also notoriously difficult to solve GR's field equations for two black holes, except numerically! But I do have an intuition about how such a simulation might go.....

    Like in the other link with very dissimilar sized black holes an external observer sees the smaller black hole approaching the larger's event horizon with an increasing amount of gravitational radiation. The smaller hole survives to get insie the event horizon of the larger black hole which now has a larger mass equal to the initial sum of the masses of the black holes less the gravitational radiation energy that has been radiated away. The external observer sees a single black hole solution with a different mass than before.

    Inside the larger black hole what happens is that an observer riding in just above the event horizon of the smaller black hole sees little change until the smaller black hole gets closer to the singularity of the large one. As ithe smaller approaches the singularity there are greater tidal distortions and radiation of energy away in gravity waves that are trapped inside the larger holes event horizon. There is a final burst of gravitational wave energy (still trapped) until the second black hole is destroyed completely by tidal forces into gravitational radiation that remains trapped inside the larger black hole.

    So my guess is that it a black hole inside another one: yes, it could exist, but it wouldn't be stable. GR radiates away asymmetries in the form of gravity waves.
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    The math gives us singularities but does anyone really believe that describes what happens? In my opinion, we simply don't know what happens. We might wind up with quark stew. One could speculate that the force creates extremely high temperatures. Is that so different from the collisions in the LHC? I suspect the answer depends on the mass of the bh. In a super massive bh, things might look like our concept of the early period during inflation after the big bang.
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    They merge or one can be thrown out of the galaxy buy the other one.they have just seen it happen.
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by kencrowder View Post
    The math gives us singularities but does anyone really believe that describes what happens? In my opinion, we simply don't know what happens. We might wind up with quark stew. One could speculate that the force creates extremely high temperatures. Is that so different from the collisions in the LHC? I suspect the answer depends on the mass of the bh. In a super massive bh, things might look like our concept of the early period during inflation after the big bang.
    Matter makes things more complicated, that is for sure. Both the simulation links posted up thread are for vacuum black holes. This simulation involving two merging neutron stars may give some qualitative insight to the case where there is matter.

    NASA | Colliding Neutron Stars Create Black Hole and Gamma-ray Burst - YouTube

    When the situation is two difficult to treat with pencil and paper math.... simulations are all one can do.
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    Default Re: Black hole inside another black hole?

    Quote Originally Posted by kencrowder View Post
    The math gives us singularities but does anyone really believe that describes what happens? In my opinion, we simply don't know what happens. We might wind up with quark stew.
    When astroval said "inside a black hole" I understood that to mean "inside the event horizon".
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