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  1. #121
    Widdekind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by not_Fritz_Argelander View Post
    Your hypothesis that there is enough visible matter in the universe is simply and flatly contradicted by observations that are much closer at hand.
    I never said that. Please don't try to put your words, in my mouth.

  2. #122
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    Widdekind is offline SUPER GIANT
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielC View Post
    I'm so glad to have another voice of reason in this thread. I have spent ages trying to explain this sort of thing to Widdekind. You can see my efforts in pages 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 of this thread.
    Please don't put your words, in my mouth. I never said, what you're saying, that I said. Not once.

    I've asked questions. I've made observations. I've never asserted anything as certified truth.

    You are mis-representing me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind View Post
    I never said that. Please don't try to put your words, in my mouth.
    Just to be fair, he said "Your hypothesis that there is enough visible matter in the universe..."

    And you titled this thread "Dark Matter - don't we see all we need?


    So count me amoung those who saw this thread as your hypothosis that there is enough visible matter (seen and yet to be seen)...

    ... it seemed you were positing that in your chosen title as well as when you said "Vera Rubin inferred the presence of "as-yet-un-seen" matter. Only theoreticians ... demand that "dim matter" be exotic, non-baryonic..."


    I sure hope this thread continues and no one gets too defensive here - it is precisely the back-and-forth that helps draw clarity from what can be fairly, if wrongly, implied from your words.


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  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind View Post
    Please don't put your words, in my mouth. I never said, what you're saying, that I said. Not once.

    I've asked questions. I've made observations. I've never asserted anything as certified truth.

    You are mis-representing me.
    I wholly disagree. You have adamantly argued for a position, and a few question marks here and there do not change that. Consider a different example. Say I write an article titled "Is Obama a Nazi?" and cover the article with "questions" and "observations" that point in that direction. Would that exonerate me from the libel claim that would follow?

    But even using your (unrealistic) standard, let's go over the thread and see what we find:

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind
    There are two distinct concepts here:
    "Dim Matter" -- Vera Rubin, looking through her telescope, infers that there must be more mass, not visible with her instrument, to account for the motions of the matter that is visible, in her instrument

    "Dark Matter" -- 'Theoreticians', scrawling symbols on blackboards, claiming that their formulas, for fusion physics, are an accurate mathematical model, of the ultra-early universe -- and then claiming that those models are incompatible, with much 'normal matter'

    These are two separately-motivated tacks, on the "missing mass" problem in Cosmology.
    This is not a question, or an observation, it is an assertion, and it is false.


    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind
    Dark Matter resides at large galactic radii. Thus, while there may not be so many "dim dwarf" objects, in our solar neighborhood (R = 30 K-lt.yr),
    As above. This isn't a question. It is an assertion that is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielC
    (2) You've ignored the data from supernovae and from galaxy clusters.
    No, I have not ignored; rather, I have disputed. I acknowledge, that, if Omega_matter ~ 1, then the SNe & Clusters analyses must be flawed. And, so, I question those analyses.
    So you are not just asking questions and making observations, you are disputing evidence and questioning the analyses. Incidentally, you never took me up on my offer to get you any published paper you wish to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind
    Yes -- what I'm alleging, is that those ever fainter, 'below the water line' objects, contribute a Cosmically-significant amount of mass, to our Visible Universe. To wit, I'm alleging, that it's not merely that 'there are lots of them', but that, also, 'there is lots of total mass in them' (as a population). Observationally, the deeper down into dimmer you delve, the more mass you'll make out (is the claim).
    So you are not just asking questions and making observations, you are making allegations, you are making a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdekind
    Yet, with 'dark matter' & 'dark energy', "Magick & Mystery" are again entering (human) Science.
    Not exactly a question, is it?


    But even without these examples, I really think that any "reasonable person" reading your posts would conclude that you were not merely asking questions but were actively defending a position. You came up with umpteen different ways to argue that there is more baryonic mass around, and it took a lot of effort to show you how each of those was wrong (planets, HUDF, Machos). This is not the profile of someone who is merely curious and has a question.
    Last edited by DanielC; 07-10-2011 at 06:52 PM.
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    This thread has passed its maximum post.
    Please continue here Dark Matter - don't we see all we need? Part 2
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