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Thread: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?



    Quote Originally Posted by UlteriorModem View Post
    It should it adjusts shutter speed to suit the 'aperture' which is pretty much wide open and tries to 'adjust' automagically.

    A brief description

    Av: Aperture Priority Mode | Canon EOS Rebel T5i / 700D: The Creative Zone | Peachpit
    Quote Originally Posted by Leveye View Post
    Thank you and congrats on getting great usable data for us! Lots of fun seeing all these great different takes on it.


    For my flats I use a laptop with a solid white frame when I do mine for all my smaller scopes. Aperture priority mode. For the larger SCTs and Newts I use the sky at dusk or dawn usually pointed away from the Sun with a white t-shirt stretched over it. Again using Aperture priority to get an even exposure. You may have taken so many that the light changed? 98 is a bit much.

    You can use bias frames or dark frames to remove noise but I find that using both with DSLR work does not make that much difference. Seeing that your using a DSLR I'd opt for just using the dark frames. For those you want to use at least half of what your total light frames are. That's all I did here and it's not that noisy at all really. I used very little noise reduction either. Mostly just some color noise removal.

    Your lights look good just need way more of them. Keep at it!
    Awesome stuff!!! And here I was thinking about not taking the scope out tonight... Hmmm, HONEY, I'll be out late again
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    FB, here's a somewhat different perspective than what I've read in some of these posts. First, stick with ISO 800. Because you're using BYE I assume you're using a fairly recent Canon camera. In many Canon cameras 800 is sort of unity gain. You get a better S/N out of it.

    Next, get rid of the light pollution filter. LP filters do get rid of artificial light wavelengths, but those wavelengths are also in the DSO data you're trying to capture. And those filters are becoming less and less effective because street lighting is largely getting converted to LED which is very broadband lighting and the LP filters cut out narrowband wavelengths mostly from sodium vapor and Mercury vapor lights. So your LP filter is doing less to remove what you're trying to get rid of, and making your camera less sensitive to the data you want. Therefore you need to take longer exposures to get the signal to rise above the noise. If you look at my avatar it's a star in focus in a Bhatinov mask through an Astronomik CLS filter. I was persuaded by some pretty accomplished imagers that I should stop using it (the filter, not the avatar) and I did a couple of years ago and it's worked out well. Use PI to get rid of the light pollution. With careful application, and I'm not accomplished with that, the light pollution is gone. DBE is the best tool I've found for that so far and there may well be better tools in that great tool box. By the way, most of my images are captured from the parking lot of a concert venue on the edge of a city of 126,000 people, 200' away from a 6 lane wide road. There's lots of light pollution there.

    When it comes to calibration frames I go with 25 darks matched to within 5C. This means that if the temperature ranges over 15C in a night, I do two sets of 25 and create 2 master darks to match the corresponding light frames. I rarely have that much temperature change in a night, but it happens.

    I also use 25 flats, but my understanding is that you want a minimum of 18, and an odd number is better.

    I use a library bias made from 79 individual frames. I just snap off 79 bias frames every 6 months or so and integrate them into a master bias that I use for the next six months. Why so many? Because they're so fast and easy to capture.

    The reason for the 18 minimum is based on the statistical algorithms that the software uses to eliminate the noise that calibration frames remove. It's something about Gausian curves and Pi or something like that . I'm not a statistics guy but I watched a video with Craig Stark of Nebulosity fame and he explained it there. The guy knows statistics. He explained that with the statistical models most image processing software uses, the point of diminishing returns is 18, but odd numbers give better results than even due to something or other about division. I understood it after watching the video, but my brain's RAM dumped it long ago and I just remember the lesson. If you want to watch the video look up SDAA AISIG Presentation by Dr. Craig Stark on YouTube. I go with 25 of each of darks and flats just because I'm a bit obsessive.

    But really, ..........step away from the filter.........., you have much better ways to deal with LP than that.
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lewis View Post
    FB, here's a somewhat different perspective than what I've read in some of these posts. First, stick with ISO 800. Because you're using BYE I assume you're using a fairly recent Canon camera. In many Canon cameras 800 is sort of unity gain. You get a better S/N out of it.
    ...
    But really, ..........step away from the filter.........., you have much better ways to deal with LP than that.
    Hey Mike! Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up I am using a new 70D.

    Kinda breaks my heart to hear that I'm supposed to stop using my brand new LP Filter... What you say makes sense but I'm confused on the route to take.

    I usually shoot 100 Bias because they are easy and quick. This last session I also shot 100 Flats because they don't take too much longer than the Bias. Shooting 25 will be just fine with me The killer is the amount of Darks; at the end of the night the last thing I want to do is wait for hours to collect a bunch of black frames.

    You give me lots to think about, which should be dangerous
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy1271 View Post
    ..... The killer is the amount of Darks; at the end of the night the last thing I want to do is wait for hours to collect a bunch of black frames.

    You give me lots to think about, which should be dangerous
    Ah, easy solution. Darks are the reason the sun rises and clouds form. Take your darks in the house during the day with the AC on. Take them at night on nights when you're not imaging. Put your camera in the fridge and take them in the day for those cold winter nights. You can take darks anytime you're not using your camera for imaging. Many nights I've set my camera up outside and set up a BYE capture plan and let it run while I slept. I have ~2,000 darks in folders on my imaging computer that I use to make masters. You don't need to refrigerate them, they keep for a long time.

    And by the way, I have 2 CLS filters that I spent hard won cash on that do nothing but gather dust on their cases.
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Once you have a set of darks that match the temperature, iso, and duration there is no need to shoot them again at least not for several months. Hardest part is matching the tempratures.

    That's why some of us build up librarys. Thing is you can shoot darks anywhere any time as long as there is no light leaks.

    I shoot mine during cloudy nights

    ps; the flats go really fast with a dslr in av mode
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lewis View Post
    Ah, easy solution. Darks are the reason the sun rises and clouds form. Take your darks in the house during the day with the AC on. Take them at night on nights when you're not imaging. Put your camera in the fridge and take them in the day for those cold winter nights. You can take darks anytime you're not using your camera for imaging. Many nights I've set my camera up outside and set up a BYE capture plan and let it run while I slept. I have ~2,000 darks in folders on my imaging computer that I use to make masters. You don't need to refrigerate them, they keep for a long time.

    And by the way, I have 2 CLS filters that I spent hard won cash on that do nothing but gather dust on their cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by UlteriorModem View Post
    Once you have a set of darks that match the temperature, iso, and duration there is no need to shoot them again at least not for several months. Hardest part is matching the tempratures.

    That's why some of us build up librarys. Thing is you can shoot darks anywhere any time as long as there is no light leaks.

    I shoot mine during cloudy nights

    ps; the flats go really fast with a dslr in av mode
    You two Rock!!! I think tonight I might be shooting some Darks

    I'm still unsure the process on some of these different type of light frames: Which do you take without removing your camera from the OTA? Just Flats? Obviously Lights
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Flats and the lights.

    Bias and Darks can be shot anywhere any time. I used to shoot mine with the camera in an ice chest to control temperature
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy1271 View Post
    You two Rock!!! I think tonight I might be shooting some Darks

    I'm still unsure the process on some of these different type of light frames: Which do you take without removing your camera from the OTA? Just Flats? Obviously Lights
    Flats have to be shot with the imaging train unchanged from the lights. The whole idea is to capture the flats with the exact same defects to the imaging train as the lights. If you have temperature changes in a night that causes you to refocus, you need to take flats before your refocus. I, and many others, take Bias and darks with the camera sitting on a table with the lens cap on. I have also taken some light frames with the scope dust cover on. This does not work well.
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    They're spot on Patrick. You can shoot darks once and use them for a long period of time and you can shoot them anytime as long as you keep it dark and temps controlled some how. As for flats you only really need to shoot them when you've attached the camera for the first time and after that, if you move the camera (i.e. rotate it) then you'll need new flats. So if you keep your rig up for a couple of nights and you don't move the camera then you can reuse the flats. Make sense? If you completely tear down after each session then you'll only have to capture your lights and flats each session. If i leave my rig set up in the back yard over several nights then I'll only take flats the first evening and then subsequent evenings it's just all lights. Of course like Mike said, focusing or changing could change your flats. I don't re-adjust focus for the most part, I'll check focus each night if I've gone with the same static setup over several nights but the changes are usually so minor i don't redo flats and I haven't run into any issues.
    Last edited by a028964; 08-11-2016 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Added details about focusing.
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    Default Re: M031: I'm Having Issues With Color and Detail... Wanna Try?

    I have also taken some light frames with the scope dust cover on. This does not work well.
    LOL leaving the bathinov mask on doesent work too well either.
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