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Thread: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?



    The 450D is rather far ahead of the 350D in terms of noise. It has the DIGIC III sensor and 14-bit sensor data.

    More importantly, it does not suffer from the rather nasty amp glow that the 350D does with long exposures (although it is still wise to leave a gap of a few seconds or so between using LiveView (e.g. for focussing) and taking pictures).

    The amp glow is caused on the 350D because the sensor has its full readout voltage applied all the time, whereas later cameras reduce this voltage during exposure and put it back up to full just before readout (we are getting a bit technical now!).

    For AP, the 450D is streets ahead... 14 bits, lower noise and LiveView!
    Not such a massive difference for terrestrial (apart from LiveView of course).
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    Telescope: SWEquinox ED80 Pro (Schott/Ohara Fluorite)+Baader Steeltrack, C8 XLT Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro, Rowan belt drive on Pillar mount+EQDIR+ADM saddle/dovetails Camera: JTW1100D mono , CentralDS 600, ASI120MM. ASI120MC, IDAS & Baader NB 2-inch filters, TS Filter Drawer System Accessories: TV Nagler T4 12 mm, Baader 8-24 MkIII, Ortho 5mm, Aspheric 31mm, Meade 12mm reticle, TV Powermate 2x & 2.5x, JMI+BAST Motorfocus+FCUSB, TV 0.8x FR/FF, Celestron 0.63FR, Orion RACI & Mag Mini, Canon IS 15x50 Bins
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    More importantly, it does not suffer from the rather nasty amp glow that the 350D does with long exposures
    ...
    The amp glow is caused on the 350D because the sensor has its full readout voltage applied all the time, whereas later cameras reduce this voltage during exposure and put it back up to full just before readout (we are getting a bit technical now!).
    Hi Phil I almost pulled the trigger on a 450D body for $225 but just read that amp glow is readout noise in the corners, which is not where I see the glow with my 350D - it is in the middle with strong suggestions of vignetting. So, if I don't care much about the live view, will I benefit from switching to a 450D? I am thinking that any money spent on a DSLR is money not spent on a cooled CCD or low-noise DSLR, which I will likely get some time. The prices keep getting lower and I expect to be able to get a full size OSC for less than $1K within a year or so. I just don't want to put up with having to take darks. So if I still have to do that with a 450D I might as well save my money for later. Thanks in advance - Henk.
    ... Henk. Telescopes: 6" Mak-Newt (Comet Hunter), ES ED127CF, ES ED80, Zhumell Z12, Coulter Odyssey 10, AT6RC, Venture RX-7, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S, AVX, LXD55, Tiltall, Cameras: Fuji X-a1, Canon SX40, Xt, XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: Dob and camera barndoor trackers, afocal adapter, Dob with foldable base and Az/Alt setting circles, Accessories: SSAG, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: DSS, ImageMagick, PHD, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK

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  3. #33
    Phil Leigh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    You will need darks with any camera, even those that can run at a setpoint -25c BUT....
    You can create a one-off scalable Master dark by getting the camera down to operating temperature and then shooting 125 darks at the longest exposure you imagine using (say 10'minutes).
    With decent post-processing software that can create "scalable darks" you never need to worry about darks again.


    I'm not sure what you are saying about amp glow butbthe 350d has really bad amp glow for a DSLR and the 450D simply doesn't have any amp glow.

    A 12mp OSC CCD with cooling will be $2k+ tjisyear and next year...
    Telescope: SWEquinox ED80 Pro (Schott/Ohara Fluorite)+Baader Steeltrack, C8 XLT Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro, Rowan belt drive on Pillar mount+EQDIR+ADM saddle/dovetails Camera: JTW1100D mono , CentralDS 600, ASI120MM. ASI120MC, IDAS & Baader NB 2-inch filters, TS Filter Drawer System Accessories: TV Nagler T4 12 mm, Baader 8-24 MkIII, Ortho 5mm, Aspheric 31mm, Meade 12mm reticle, TV Powermate 2x & 2.5x, JMI+BAST Motorfocus+FCUSB, TV 0.8x FR/FF, Celestron 0.63FR, Orion RACI & Mag Mini, Canon IS 15x50 Bins
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Best way when starting out with Photoshop, save your original DSS image and copy it - Open the copy in PS and fiddle! Its amazing how quick you will pick it up and there is nothing better than seeing M42 appear from nothing (even with an unmodded camera).Cheers.

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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    You will need darks with any camera, even those that can run at a setpoint -25c
    In that case I will wait until I know more about the cause of the glow with my 350D and the improvements I can expect with other cameras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    I'm not sure what you are saying about amp glow butthe 350d has really bad amp glow for a DSLR and the 450D simply doesn't have any amp glow.
    Look at the Orion sub in my signature. The red glow centered in the picture is in every sub. I suspect that this is from dark current (sensor heat). Amp glow is supposed to be in the corners so my problem with the 350D is not amp glow if my assumption is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    A 12mp OSC CCD with cooling will be $2k+ tjisyear and next year...
    I was thinking of 6mp.
    ... Henk. Telescopes: 6" Mak-Newt (Comet Hunter), ES ED127CF, ES ED80, Zhumell Z12, Coulter Odyssey 10, AT6RC, Venture RX-7, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S, AVX, LXD55, Tiltall, Cameras: Fuji X-a1, Canon SX40, Xt, XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: Dob and camera barndoor trackers, afocal adapter, Dob with foldable base and Az/Alt setting circles, Accessories: SSAG, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: DSS, ImageMagick, PHD, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK

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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Phil,

    Thanks again for all your input on these cameras. The last SLR camera I owned was a Pentax Program Plus Film Camera. I was just starting to get into astrophotography with it when I went on my long hiatus from astronomy.

    I was wondering if you know anything about the 550D T2i and 600D T3i cameras, and how they compare to the 450D? Looking at the price charts of all Canon DSLR cameras, these seem to be the most feature packed Canon cameras before the prices start to get ridiculous. Would spending a little more for one of these cameras gain me anything, as far as astrophotography is concerned, or would I just be paying more for features that won't have any benefit? I do like the ability to take video with both of these cameras. I case I ever get the hankering to try out lunar, and planetary, RegiStax type photography. Other than an articulated display, and minor cosmetic changes, I don't see any difference between the 550D and the 600D though?

    Looking forward to hearing your opinion cornering these cameras.

    Mark :0)

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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Quote Originally Posted by CamelHat View Post
    In that case I will wait until I know more about the cause of the glow with my 350D and the improvements I can expect with other cameras.


    Look at the Orion sub in my signature. The red glow centered in the picture is in every sub. I suspect that this is from dark current (sensor heat). Amp glow is supposed to be in the corners so my problem with the 350D is not amp glow if my assumption is correct.


    I was thinking of 6mp.
    The M42 sub (is that a single frame or a stack?) does not show amp glow that I can see... what processing have you done to that image? Do you mean the "red" glow around the nebula? - can you post a full size pic here so it can be analysed?

    If you are looking at 6Mp MONO+filters that will get you similar (25% better) resolution than an 18Mp DSLR such as a 7D.
    A 6Mp OSC CCD will get you lower resolution than the 350D! (but much less noise if cooled adequately)


    As I said, you can avoid all of the pain of darks (and bias frames) by using a scalable master dark within suitable AP processing software (not Photoshop or Gimp!)... Maxim, Nebulosity and (especially) PixInsight support scalable darks.

    {as an aside}

    Having said all of that, there is a fundamental flaw in Canon DSLR darks, discovered by Craig Stark. Because of some "interesting" internal processing that happens in-camera before the RAW data is written, Canon dark frames show non-linear behaviour with regard to exposure time and the effect of dark current.... the internal processing actually reduces the visible impact of dark current (the noise still grows exponentially with temperature though). This is great but it means that the darks are not truly scalable as they would be from a normal ccd (or possibly from other DSLR's)... they will be close but not perfect. It's hard to quantify the impact but it can be minimised by cooling the cameras below 0c.
    Telescope: SWEquinox ED80 Pro (Schott/Ohara Fluorite)+Baader Steeltrack, C8 XLT Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro, Rowan belt drive on Pillar mount+EQDIR+ADM saddle/dovetails Camera: JTW1100D mono , CentralDS 600, ASI120MM. ASI120MC, IDAS & Baader NB 2-inch filters, TS Filter Drawer System Accessories: TV Nagler T4 12 mm, Baader 8-24 MkIII, Ortho 5mm, Aspheric 31mm, Meade 12mm reticle, TV Powermate 2x & 2.5x, JMI+BAST Motorfocus+FCUSB, TV 0.8x FR/FF, Celestron 0.63FR, Orion RACI & Mag Mini, Canon IS 15x50 Bins
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  9. #38
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3D Romeo View Post
    Phil,

    Thanks again for all your input on these cameras. The last SLR camera I owned was a Pentax Program Plus Film Camera. I was just starting to get into astrophotography with it when I went on my long hiatus from astronomy.

    I was wondering if you know anything about the 550D T2i and 600D T3i cameras, and how they compare to the 450D? Looking at the price charts of all Canon DSLR cameras, these seem to be the most feature packed Canon cameras before the prices start to get ridiculous. Would spending a little more for one of these cameras gain me anything, as far as astrophotography is concerned, or would I just be paying more for features that won't have any benefit? I do like the ability to take video with both of these cameras. I case I ever get the hankering to try out lunar, and planetary, RegiStax type photography. Other than an articulated display, and minor cosmetic changes, I don't see any difference between the 550D and the 600D though?

    Looking forward to hearing your opinion cornering these cameras.

    Mark :0)
    Mark - the articulated display is worth having if you are planning on using the liveview feature for focusing; many folks here use a tethered laptop to control shooting and focusing and lots of other stuff too (checkout BackyardEOS or APT for example)... tethered shooting has so many advantages for AP I could write a book on it. The only downside is that you really need a Windows PC and of course a laptop and a power supply for the laptop...

    The 550D is great for planetary because it has a 640x480 movie crop mode which gives perfect 1:1 capture ratio - most other cameras lack this mode; Canon seem to have abandoned it for some reason. You can get very very close using LiveView 5x capture on most of the other cameras but you will need a connected laptop to do that.

    The 550D has lower noise and higher resolution that the 450D - I had a (modded 450D) that I replaced with a 550D for AP for these reasons and for the improved planetary video possibilities.


    I would avoid the 600D in favour of the 550D UNLESS you never intend to attach a laptop - then I would go for the 600D, purely for the screen.
    Phil
    Telescope: SWEquinox ED80 Pro (Schott/Ohara Fluorite)+Baader Steeltrack, C8 XLT Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro, Rowan belt drive on Pillar mount+EQDIR+ADM saddle/dovetails Camera: JTW1100D mono , CentralDS 600, ASI120MM. ASI120MC, IDAS & Baader NB 2-inch filters, TS Filter Drawer System Accessories: TV Nagler T4 12 mm, Baader 8-24 MkIII, Ortho 5mm, Aspheric 31mm, Meade 12mm reticle, TV Powermate 2x & 2.5x, JMI+BAST Motorfocus+FCUSB, TV 0.8x FR/FF, Celestron 0.63FR, Orion RACI & Mag Mini, Canon IS 15x50 Bins
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  11. #39
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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    The M42 sub (is that a single frame or a stack?) does not show amp glow that I can see... what processing have you done to that image? Do you mean the "red" glow around the nebula? - can you post a full size pic here so it can be analysed?
    I posted a 66% scaled JPG version of the unprocessed .CR2 file in a new album "Henk's astro pics" at http://www.astronomyforum.net/member...led-66%25.html . I wanted to post the .CR2 but it said the file format was invalid, and also that the full size JPG version was too big to upload. The picture in my signature was edited with Windows Live Photo Gallery. What I typically do is crank up the shadows to the max, reduce the highlights to the min, slide the left slider of the histogram to the right until the light/dark balance looks nice. After that the red glow around the center starts showing up. Then I mess a bit with the colors usually increasing the saturation. The processing of this single sub was quite heavy so I am sure it amplified the red glow. Thanks for helping out by the way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    If you are looking at 6Mp MONO+filters that will get you similar (25% better) resolution than an 18Mp DSLR such as a 7D.
    A 6Mp OSC CCD will get you lower resolution than the 350D! (but much less noise if cooled adequately)
    My goals are much more modest than yours as I am attempting to do AP with a Dob. The limiting factor for me right now is the tracking, not the camera resolution. Hopefully this will improve drastically soon with the improvements that I am working on. If I decided to buy a rig with a good mount and an APO yes then the CCD resolution matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    As I said, you can avoid all of the pain of darks (and bias frames) by using a scalable master dark within suitable AP processing software (not Photoshop or Gimp!)... Maxim, Nebulosity and (especially) PixInsight support scalable darks.
    If I had all the time in the world I would be interested in writing my own picture processing tool. I have a background in parametric statistic modeling and signal processing, and the red glow pattern that I see seems like something that can be modeled and subtracted without having to shoot any darks. I am not surprised that astro tools do this.
    ... Henk. Telescopes: 6" Mak-Newt (Comet Hunter), ES ED127CF, ES ED80, Zhumell Z12, Coulter Odyssey 10, AT6RC, Venture RX-7, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S, AVX, LXD55, Tiltall, Cameras: Fuji X-a1, Canon SX40, Xt, XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: Dob and camera barndoor trackers, afocal adapter, Dob with foldable base and Az/Alt setting circles, Accessories: SSAG, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: DSS, ImageMagick, PHD, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK

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    Default Re: Why am I losing color in all my DeepSkyStacker final images?

    Phil,

    Thanks again for your insight on the cameras I've been looking into, and astrophotography in general. I hope I'm not 'overdoing my stay' with my continued barrage of questions? But I'm really starting to see a clear guideline now, and the questioning should start to tail off after today. As a total Newb, your information has been most invaluable.

    If I can get a 600D for less money than a 550D, would you still recommend the 550D, or would the 600D now become the obvious choice?

    In an earlier post you mentioned that the 450D was very easy to self-mod, does this hold true for the 550D and 600D, as well?

    Concerning camera pricing, some camera outlets online sell each camera in two versions, one being "USA RETAIL". As with computer components, do I assume that both versions are the same items with just the "USA RETAIL" versions coming in fancy retail packaging, sometimes with additional components and software, and in some cases better warranties? Or are you aware of two versions of Canon cameras being manufactured (one for the USA market, and one for China)? Because if the base camera is the same, I could do without the rest of the stuff to save some money, I would think?

    I'm also interested in "how much of a laptop" do you need for using LiveView, or any other application that might be used in an astronomy/astrophotography session outdoors? The reason I ask is because I'd hate to risk damaging my one and only laptop outside in the elements if a smaller, cheaper, dedicated netbook could be used instead. I'd only be giving up a few inches on the screen size, and could probably pick one up pretty cheaply these days. A netbook would also be much more portable, and easier to setup next to the telescope than a larger laptop. So I'm wondering if a netbook will handle all the duties that my outdoor astronomy/astrophotography sessions would ever require, or do some applications require more power, or features than a netbook can't handle?

    I hope I can once again tap into your knowledge on these concerns?

    Thanks again!

    Mark :0)

 

 
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