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Thread: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)



    Quote Originally Posted by STEVE333 View Post
    Nice clarifications. I especially appreciate the information about the "30 sec limit" for my 4 SE mount because of it's inherent tracking accuracy. Now I won't waste too much time trying for 2 min exposures.
    Steve,

    I have mixed results with the 4SE in the equatorial mode. A lot depends upon how precise the polar alignment is and the other ... I'm still trying to work out. I was obtaining two minute exposures with my mount with a high degree of frequency. However, lately, I am struggling to get one minute and sometimes 45 seconds. I also have a lot of drift, something I never had before with the 4SE mount.

    Something has changed and I have yet to determine what it is.
    SXINIAS

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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Joe,
    Sorry to hear about your 4SE mount problems. Hopefully you can find the culprit and get back to your longer exposures. Based on your earlier successes with longer exposures I will probably experiment a bit with some 2 minute exposures just to see what my mount can do.

    Phil and Jerry,
    For what it's worth, I asked Michael Covington about the effects of sensor size (I also thought that a smaller sensor should be less prone to image rotation problems). He said:

    "Actually, chip size does not determine the limit -- nor does focal length -- the size of the finished print does. One of the diagrams in Astrophotography for the Amateur shows why this is so. Of course, a person who is accustomed to very sharp pictures might want less than 0.1 degree."

    Hope this helps.

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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Quote Originally Posted by STEVE333 View Post
    Joe,
    Sorry to hear about your 4SE mount problems. Hopefully you can find the culprit and get back to your longer exposures. Based on your earlier successes with longer exposures I will probably experiment a bit with some 2 minute exposures just to see what my mount can do.

    Phil and Jerry,
    For what it's worth, I asked Michael Covington about the effects of sensor size (I also thought that a smaller sensor should be less prone to image rotation problems). He said:

    "Actually, chip size does not determine the limit -- nor does focal length -- the size of the finished print does. One of the diagrams in Astrophotography for the Amateur shows why this is so. Of course, a person who is accustomed to very sharp pictures might want less than 0.1 degree."

    Hope this helps.

    Steve
    Whoah! - I think we saying the same thing but in different ways?

    When MC talks about the size of the print he is also saying that the more pixels you have (in the camera) the more obvious field rotation will be. This is what I am saying... not the physical "size" of the sensor per se but how many pixels there are and how big they are - this is what determines the size of the print...

    Fewer, bigger pixels will "hide" field rotation because it takes more rotation to move from one pixel to an adjacent one.

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  4. #44
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Phil,

    Clearly this is a complicated issue with so many variables involved. The link below is to a website with a partial copy of MC's book. On page 281 he presents his case for 0.1 degrees as a reasonable limit for any size sensor IF the resulting image is blown up to 8" x 10" (the largest a photo is likely to be printed). Food for thought.

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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Phil,

    Sorry, doorbell rang and wife called and I forgot to include the web link. The link is

    Astrophotography for the Amateur: Michael A. Covington: 9780521627405: Amazon.com: Books

    and the book is "Astrophotography for the Amateur", Second Edition.

    Steve
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Yes, I've got his books. Mostly very good. My PC monitors are bigger than 10x8 and my AP prints are 15x10 upwards... !


    A star will appear "trailed" by field rotation (or anything else) the moment its centroid moves from one pixel to an adjacent one. This is the basis of all guiding. If you have fewer larger pixels it takes more movement to shift the centroid. Modern DSLR's mostly have vast numbers of small pixels. You will see the effects of FR much sooner than on a typical 5-8Mp CCD.

    Anyway, perhaps the best thing would be to see some of those 120+ second DSLR alt/az shots...? This is all theory - time for some practice :-)

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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    I'm envious of your large prints. Your points about the smaller pixels makes sense.

    My ST 80-A arrives today along with nighttime fog! Hopefully I will be able to generate some of these images sometime in the near future. My wife's health issues take up four nights out of the week and leave me a bit tired on the other three. When daylight savings changes it will definitely be a help for me as it will get dark one hour earlier.

    Thanks for the discussion and the encouragement.

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  8. #48
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    My ST 80-A arrived yesterday. Today I had a chance to take it outside and look at things through an eyepiece and also with the DSLR attached. As I was adjusting the focus in and out and switching things around I accidentally backed the focus tube all the way out!!! It wouldn't go back in. I called Orion (who happens to be located only about 15 miles away) and they said they would replace the whole thing at no charge. They said the tube has a stop on it and should not have backed all the way out. I won't be able to get there until Monday, so, no pictures for a while.

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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    Phil,

    I finally had my first DSLR astrophotography session last night. Using my NexStar 4 SE mount (Az/El) with an ST 80-A telescope and a Canon EOS T3. BYEOS was used to control the exposures. I took 30 exposures at 120 sec each (my program said that 120 sec would produce 0.1 degree or less image rotation). Unfortunately I had the wrong camera settings for the saved raw images. However I also took JPEG images and one of them is shown in the image below.



    M33 is faintly visible just below and to the left of center. I don't see any star trails, but, I am still new to this game and don't have the trained eye many of you more experienced observers have. There is some elongation of the stars at the edges, but, I believe that is caused by aberrations of the ST 80 achromat and not star trails because the elongation is radial (away from the center of the image) and not in an arc. If all my timed exposures look as star trail free as this image I will be happy.

    What do you think?

    I hope to repeat this test in the near future so that RAW images can be saved and processed with DSS to bring out M33.

    Clear skies,

    Steve
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    Default Re: Stacking images from alt-azimuth mount (image shift)

    After downloading the newest beta version of DSS I was able to load and process my Canon Raw images. The result of stacking the best 11 images of M33 is shown below.



    I know this isn't beautiful compared to the many wonderful images posted here, but, it's beautiful to me because it is my first astrophotograph!! It shows that my system works and that even with an AzEl mount I should be able to capture many of the Messier objects. I sometimes wondered if I would EVER get my first astrophotograph.

    My NexStar 4 SE mount is certainly not ideal for astrophotography. It has occasional "jumps" that ruin an exposure, so, 120 second exposures are probably not ideal for this system. Joe has fought this battle for several years and suggests that exposures no longer than 45 sec to 60 seconds may yield the longest total exposures in the long run. I'm beginning to think that will be true. However, it's nice to know that longer exposures are sometimes possible for AzEl mounts.

    I would like to thank the many individuals in this forum who have encouraged/help me along the way (especially Sixinias) to persevere and not give up. I'm very happy to be firmly started on this new hobby.

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