First Serious Scope Purchase - Doing the Homework First

[star drop]

Hi Mike,

One of our friends has the same physical ailment as you. He had problems with the flickering of his computers cathode ray tube (CRT) and switched after using our liquid crystal panel (LCD) monitor.
How much trouble would you have moving a telescope? You mentioned observing on the hill tops. Is portability paramount or would you observe mostly from home. Any telescope tricky to assemble or move would not be the thing to have to use in the dark especially if you become dizzy.

[DizzyGazer]

Vin,

Spent my spare time today reading everything I could find on Cassegrain & Mak's (of which I likely retained about 10%..). Still, that, and after thinking how it would work in real terms, I can absolutely see how that would be a great scope design for me. Much less overall re-adjusting to do in the dark. I can see why you love the refractors, and hopefully in due time a nice one will be in my own scope inventory.

Since any decent viewing weather may not be available until March/April, and in order to get the best scope I can when I'm ready, I'm quite willing to wait and save up a few more of those American twocents.gif before making a decision on which exact one.

I have no problem at all spending up to what is needed to get a scope I would really enjoy for years to come. In the meantime, I think I will look for a lower cost, small aperture refractor to use and do some learning, and I've still got the bino's which are doing a good job of teaching me the way around the skies.

***

Michael,

I looked up that SkyWindow viewer...very cool device! To be honest, I think for now I'll hang on to that $300 (need the upgrade since have 10x50's) and put it towards a real nice SCT or Mak in a few months.

I like the idea of a seat. Interesting design, and I can see how it would be useful. I am hoping with the SCT or Mak that I can use something that adjusts in height and has a comfortable seat with some padded armrests. Maybe an offshoot design of this chair. I've saved the link and looked over some of the directions there, and on another site. If I'm planning to sit for hours on end (and I am..) then having something padded under my bony arse would sure make it more pleasant..moose.gif


***

Star Drop,

I'm actually as mobile as the next guy in most all cases. It's just the standing still part (at times). Visual things can affect me just as your friend, but for me the difficulties are usually limited to bright flashy images, things that are spinning horizontally right to left, etc.

I will do most of my observing from home. The hills will be a great spot for special occasions and the odd all-nighter, and only if I have another stargazer along. I'm really not so worried about the Black Bears at all, but it's the odd Grizzly that lives in these Mtn's that concern me, along with the high population of Cougar. It's not so much "fear", but caution, experience and a healthy respect for 200 lb. cats that prefer easy to catch, soft white meat. Many years back I long-line trapped bobcat, beaver, mink, etc. through a more southern portion of the Cascades, and spent many hours climbing through the high country (and low). These days, I wouldn't consider harming an animal unless it was seriously threatening. (Hell...I shoo half a dozen big raccoons off my front porch every night...(

Lights on, I can walk as well as anyone, move about and do most anything I need to. When I feel up to it I do most all the yardwork on our place, fish (but I don't wade the river anymore like I used to.) etc.

Moving around in the dark is going to be another matter altogether, unfortunately. Since the normal balance centers are all screwed up, it seems my body has basically taught itself to help compensate by using solid objects as reference points. But on a moonless night without those visual references, it can be challenging, to be honest. I get decent night vision after a while, like anyone, and I do much better once adjusted to the light. I'm stubborn as hell though, so no worries, I won't let it slow me down at all. Getting up to make adjustments, move etc. won't be any problem at all I don't believe. Once I'm seated and solid I'm as good as gold though!

*******

Realistically, I would rather take the time till Spring and learn as much as I can here, through books and when possible with my 10x50's. If a smaller refractor is found along the way, all the better. There's a ton of great stuff to be learned, and I plan to enjoy the hobby for many, many years yet.

I received 2 books I had ordered today: "Cambridge Guide to the Stars and Planets", and "Turn Left at Orion". I've read the Introductions to both and can't wait to get into them more. Although free time is scarce right now, I hope to get enough of it to spend a few hrs. in those books over the next few days!

Mike

[Vinnie]

Short answer Mike

No one single scope will be the answer. That's why most of us own more than one

Long answer

I'm going to duck downstairs and take a few photos of a small Mak and post them for you

To be continued.......

[Vinnie]

OK I'm Baa..aack

So here's the 5" Mak.

What I would like to point out is the dewshield (they don't come with one). This is a DIY out of a bit of offcut 6" PVC sewer pipe, painted black. FWIW black chalkboard paint works well on the inside to keep the thing non reflective

Also more importantly note the finder (also an extra, well you get either an RDF or a straight magnifier in these packages). It is a 9 x 50 RACI and so it can be rotated, and therefore viewed at any angle from a seated position.

This is something that I have missed in our discussion so far, but I figure its not much use you having a straight finder as this will defeat the whole exercise. ie you may be able to move the main diagonal, but there's no value in being down on hands and knees looking up to find any bloody thing, hey!

This is an older Skywatcher, but they haven't changed much. The Orions are painted Maroon, and the new release Skywatchers are black and white. Thats about it. The tripod here is a Vixen, but that's because I had one doing nothing. The mount head is an EQ3-2 which is also sold as the Orion Astroview, and Celestron CG4. Same story, different paint.

Very tidy and stable mount and scope combo, very portable and very low maintenance, looks about $650 US right now, but you would need to add a couple of EP's and so forth, and the RACI finder. say $900 US at the end of the day?



And sans dewshield just to give you a perspective

[DizzyGazer]

Hi Vin,

Thanks for taking the pics! I looked at those a dozen times yesterday (even got the wife to look at 'em too, so she has a small clue about what I've been jabbering about so much..LOL)

The improved Finder scope seems like darned good idea to add-on. As for the scope, I am settled on a SCT or MAK, as from what I've been reading they have some incredible capabilities, and suits my needs almost perfectly..

With winter upon us here in the far NW of the US, I expect that there would be few nights that would be decent for viewing until the Spring, so in the meantime I'll work with whatever small refractor I can find, and save up the pennies till Spring.

Q: Does the EP on a Mak or SCT scope rotate to the side, as well, or are you always looking into the EP from the top angle?

Mike

[Vinnie]

Hi Mike

The Diagonal, and therefore the EP, rotates a full 360, as does the RACI (that's right angle correct image) finder, so you can do everything seated, and just move your eye from finder to main scope while in the same posture

This is a popular little refractor

[Registered users can see links. ]

Also ships with a couple of quite nice EP's (which is unusual in cheaper packages) and would be a nice compliment to a Mak for low mag wide field observing. Also you could add a cheap 30mm plossl and you wouldn't need to bother with the finder at all

[Vinnie]

Actually just looking at that ST80 package again, it ships with an Expanse 9mm and 20mm EP (which as I say, are a lot better than usual package EP's) and the 5" Mak is shipping with a 6mm Edge On and a 25mm plossl, so if you did go that way, and added say a 30mm Plossl you'd have a pretty comprehensive EP coverage.

[DizzyGazer]

Hi Vin,

I wanted to get out and see the Moon tonight as it was low in the South, but I couldn't hold the bino's steady enough...so, I grabbed a camera tripod and a roll of duct tape..(amazing what that stuff can do... Just set the bino's across the top of the camera mount, covered them with a piece of 1" plastic so the tape would not adhere to the bino's, and taped across the top, securing to the bottom of the camera mount. ('Ol Red Green would be proud..)

It was good enough to let me sit in a chair, adjust the height of a steady tripod and a well-focused bino EP, and fairly comfortably be able to enjoy a nice view of the Moon (at least for a little while, as it dropped below the tree line and into the forming fog). I did get a chance to really concentrate on one crater I could see, and after checking the Cambridge Guide images and the Stellarium I believe that it was Clavius. Made my night right there!

Plan to make a more appropriate mount for them tomorrow. Should be quite simple.

Then, I refocused on one of the few other objects I know where and when to sight now; the Pleiades. They were right at 50º, and I was able to see those stars very well. They must be incredible under a nice scope!

Can't wait to get something with a diagonal/EP, as the neck strain really got to me after a bit, but I had no issues with balance tonight at all. Enjoyed every second of it, and although it's in the lower 30's F., I could have stayed for hours if I had a scope with the Star Diagonal.

That's a nice looking refractor, and after reading some reviews it seems well thought of.....so, I did the only thing that any honest man would. I sent my wife a link to it..titled "On Santa's Wish List"..moose.gif

Honestly though, I told her a couple days ago that I would like a smaller refractor as a Christmas present, and I am afraid she has already purchased one. If so, well...I'll still use the hell out of it and learn my way around planets and the more local skies, and get a bonus of learning better navigation on the deeper space objects. I figure I'm middle-aged, but still a rookie with a long, enjoyable education ahead. Plus, in a few months I'll have a nice pot-o-gold saved up for a real quality scope..

I did show her a couple on the Orion scope site, but had planned to stay on the lower-end with the 70mm. My guess is that this is the one she bought:

[Registered users can see links. ]

Looks like a good little scope, and uses the 1.25" EP's. Had good reviews, as well. We also have a lot of high mountain wildlife here, including Elk and Mountain goats that like to graze in the high mtn. meadows in the evening. Be nice to see them from a few miles away, so this may get some terrestrial work as well. It can also serve nicely as a second/back-up scope, as I'm sure there will be times when the wife or a friend wants to come along and do some observing, and I would think it would a great scope to teach others with.

Mike

[Vinnie]

Hi Mike

Yeah that reads better than a lot of the small refractors in that class that are around.

For terrestrial use you will probably want a Correct Image prism Diagonal, Remember that an astro refractor shows everything reversed and inverted

[RussL]

Hey Dizz,

Sorry I'm late jumping in here, but Vin gave me a heads up on it. So, here's my opinion on it all.

I am a hardcore believer in portability, and to that end I love my ST80. Sure, I also have an 8" SCT, but it hardly ever goes out since I got the ST80. The SCT weighs in at around 40 lbs., fully assembled on its wedgepod (an equitorial wedge that adjusts for latitude upon which is mounted the forks and OTA--it also has non-adjustable legs, unfortunately). I don't even know if you can still buy a wedge unless it's used. The SCT is a Celestron Celestar 8 Standard from back in 1999. It's f10. The lowest power I can get is 51x with a 40mm eyepiece. The highest theoretical is around 480x, but really 320x is more useful. Ok, so it's great for planets.

The ST80 OTA weighs about 4.5 lbs. with diagonal, finder and eyepiece. I put it on an EQ-2 mount which weighs 17.5 lbs. So, at roughly 22 lbs. I'm out the door with the scope/mount in one hand and my eyepiece case under the same arm. I plop it down, aim the RA axis generally north, and I'm set. And I can track any object I find all night by just using the RA control knob. To me that's far better for astronomy than an alt/az Now, because I'm not perfectly polar aligned, I may have to oujie the tripod around a hair to get back on tracking, but it doesn't matter because I need to move to different places in the yard anyway all night. With this set-up, I'm out there almost EVERY clear night. When it's time for a short session, the ST80's the one to take. When I want to get up close with a planet or split a tough double, I'll save it for when I feel like hauling the SCT around. Without exaggerating, I'll say that the ST80 has revolutionized and reinvented my observing.

Now, it's not for high power, true. But It IS for wide views. The SCT won't do what the ST80 will do, just as the ST80 won't give me 320x either. But, by golly, I never knew what I was missing before I got it. Now I'm fascinated with seeing things like the whole Pleiades AND the surrounding view as well. Also, you don't need high power on many DSOs. M31 looks best at 32x for me in the ST80. Even at 16x!! One thing I have done is to eliminate the finder altogether. With the 40mm Plossl in there I'm at 10x just like binos. BUT, I have also discovered that if I put in a 25mm with, say, at least a 50-degree view that I'm seeing just about the same size piece of sky, only at 16x. So, what I'm getting at is that the whole scope has become a finder in itself. To sight it, sometimes I do get on my knees, but lately, (don't you guys laugh--this works), I've gotten good at sitting in the chair, looking up, aiming the scope toward an object so that if I go up and down I'll run into it, though not perfectly every time. But with very little scanning I can find anything I want that way. Hey, I put it almost dead on the Ring Nebula the other night. Anyway, once I find something, I lock the axes, center the object with the controls, and work up in power. Easy.

Ok, so the ST80 is achromatic, and an f5. That's fast, and fast scopes like more expensive eyepieces in order to not show aberrations like edge distortion, coma, off-axis clarity, etc. And an achromat will show chromatic aberration, too. Yep. But guess what, I don't have expensive eyepieces. My favorite one right now is a cheap Kellner design (25mm, 50-degree AFOV). And I'm having a ball. To kill chromatic aberration I remove the small cap in the end cap and, poof, it's almost like an apo. Not really, but it works great on planets and the moon. Besides, things dimmer than mag 5 or so don't have an issue anyway with chromatic aberration.

Power-wise, the ST80 is good for about a max of 120x for most conditions that you see. Actually, 80x is better. For planets, that's not much power. But planets aren't high on my list. It's the clusters I like, a few easy doubles, larger Messiers, and above all, BIG views. I could get a bigger view with a very wide eyepiece, but I don't want the weight of, say, a Hyperion (almost the size of a Campbell's soup can). 55-60-degrees will suffice and save money, too. The Orion Expanse series comes with the scope (the Orion version--mine's the Celestron verion). These are 68-degree eyepieces, and will work, but will not perform as well as some others. The Expanses are Erfles and suffer a bit at the edge, and have a little stray reflection at times on bright objects (tried a friend's 6mm). But they're good to start. I may even get one anyway. Otherwise, I like the Orion Edge-on Planetaries (same as William Optics SPLs) and maybe even the Orion Epic series. However, Agena Astro has the same things for less.

The Orion ST80 can be had with the EQ-1 mount for $300, plus accessories. While the EQ-1 is not as robust as the EQ-2 it does work, and works well (my friend has one). I got an EQ-2 since I bought my OTA separately and found the mount used. It's MORE than enough.

Sorry to be so long, but I thought you might be interested. Yes, two scopes are better than one, for sure, but I think that an ST80 is a great place to start, and it won't break the bank. You never have to collimate it, it cools down fast, carries with one hand--oh, forgot to mention that I don't ever install the accessory tray on the mount. That way I can always fold the legs in when going in and out--MUCH easier.

I'll let ya go now, Dizz. If your wife already has something coming for you, just enjoy the heck out of it, whatever it is. You can always keep reading up and get something in addition later. I wish you the best out there, and I always enjoy reading your posts. You are still an inspiration. BTW, my friend with Meniere's is still doing ok with the diuretic treatment. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Happy observing to ya, pal, and clear skies.

--Dawg, the Russell