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  1. #1
    west's Avatar
    west Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time



    This may be a dumb question but can you see a deep space object more than
    once in different stages of its life? For example ( perhaps you have a
    better example), we observe a super nova and as we later use more powerful
    telescopes that probe much deeper, can we see the same object when it was a
    star? Then as a Nebula? This is confusing to me but I hope not for you.
    Thanks in advance.

    Cordially,
    west



  2. #2
    Greg Neill's Avatar
    Greg Neill Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in message news:gFVkh.5121$Ej7.5080@trnddc02...

    No. Light emitted later can never catch up with,
    let alone pass, light emitted earlier.



  3. #3
    Sam Wormley's Avatar
    Sam Wormley Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    Greg Neill wrote:

    But you can observe things that change as their "future unfolds".

    o variable stars
    o changes on planets
    o supernovae
    o novae
    o comets
    o

    Remember that the speed of light is a universal constant... and the
    further you look out, the further back in time you venture.

  4. #4
    oriel36's Avatar
    oriel36 Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time


    west wrote:

    These ideas are set up by mathematicians who do not care whether they
    make physical sense of not and their basic structure in their
    formulation and outlook is from the exotic early 20th century concepts
    whoes conclusions math that of a 19th century science fiction novel.If
    you beg to go down the yellow brick road of 20th century physics then
    you asked all the right questions but I assure you there is real
    satisfaction from turning away from them and start looking for yourself
    at modern imaging and what it can do.

    Begin with something closer to home,for instance how solar radiation
    lights up the Earth's surface exposed to solar radiation while leaving
    the surrounding space in darkness -

    http://www.btinternet.com/~fireballx..._s65_63873.gif

    Go down any unexplored or barely explored astronomical avenue such as
    the difference between light from the Sun as visible radiation and
    radiation moving through space.


  5. #5
    Greg Neill's Avatar
    Greg Neill Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    "Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
    news:7XVkh.195028$aJ.55536@attbi_s21...

    All fine and dandy, but you can never see the *same* object
    at different ages at the same time, which was what the OP
    was asking.

    Of course I'm choosing to ignore the trivial case of the
    multiple images of gravitationally lensed objects, where
    the pathlengths of the lightrays may differ by a small
    amount.



  6. #6
    oriel36's Avatar
    oriel36 Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time


    Sam Wormley wrote:

    The original explanation for 'warped space' ,from which you draw your
    conclusions, is that light leaving stars would go to waste therefore
    the neccesity for 'bending ' space to prevent that sad state of affairs
    -

    "This conception is in itself not very satisfactory. It is still less
    satisfactory because it leads to the result that the light emitted by
    the stars and also individual stars of the stellar system are
    perpetually passing out into infinite space, never to return, and
    without ever again coming into interaction with other objects of
    nature. Such a finite material universe would be destined to become
    gradually but systematically impoverished." 1920

    http://www.bartleby.com/173/30.html

    Maybe there is a pandemic reading disability among you all but that is
    incredibly funny and made more so by his rejection of stellar islands
    we now know as galaxies,something that was observationally observed in
    the middle 1920's.


    Next year,a few here will have to decide whether it is worth attaching
    themselves to concepts which would not find credibility on the cartoon
    channel.It is not that the actual astronomical material before people
    is any less exciting but that the novelty of these ridiculous excesses
    of mathematicians still remains is very surprising,especially with
    contemporary imaging.

    People really would like to see where astronomy meshes with terrestrial
    sciences but are being blocked by exotic nonsense or by the
    magnification guys who think they are 'astronomers' by virtue of having
    a telescope.


  7. #7
    AustinMN's Avatar
    AustinMN Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    oriel36 wrote:


    How does one explore something that does not exist?

    Don't waste time with oriel36, he's Ferrous Cranus:

    <http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm>

    Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason,
    persuasion and new ideas...he will not yield an
    inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness...
    he will remount the same attack again and again
    with only the slightest variation in tactics...ever
    unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.

    Austin


  8. #8
    RMOLLISE's Avatar
    RMOLLISE Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    Hi:

    Right. Not to belabor the point, but novices here should be aware that
    "Oriole" is what we call an "Internet Loon." He has his own special
    "theories" about the universe. Theories that are well (and charitably)
    summed up by that famous line, "Sorry, this isn't even _wrong_." Don't
    take his posts seriously or depend on him to answer your questions
    about the _science_ of astronomy accurately.

    Peace,
    Rod Mollise
    Author of:
    Choosing and Using a Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope
    and
    The Urban Astronomer's Guide
    <http://skywatch.brainiac.com/astroland>

    AustinMN wrote:


  9. #9
    Starlord's Avatar
    Starlord Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time

    When we find a super nove all they do is check the photos of that same area
    of the sky and from them they find the image of the star that just blew
    it'self to bits, no they don't see the light from before as that light has
    already passed the earth and the supernova light would out shine it anyway.


    --
    There are those who believe that life here, began out there, far across the
    universe, with tribes of humans, who may have been the forefathers of the
    Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. Some believe that they may yet be
    brothers of man, who even now fight to survive, somewhere beyond the
    heavens.


    The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
    Telescope Buyers FAQ
    http://home.inreach.com/starlord
    Sidewalk Astronomy
    www.sidewalkastronomy.info
    The Church of Eternity
    http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html


    "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in message
    news:gFVkh.5121$Ej7.5080@trnddc02...



  10. #10
    oriel36's Avatar
    oriel36 Guest

    Default Same Object, Different Time


    Greg Neill wrote:

    " Some inequalities of time may arise from the Excentricities of the
    Orbs of the Satellites; [etc.]... But this inequality has no respect to
    the position of the Earth, and in the three interior Satellites is
    insensible, as I find by computation from the Theory of their Gravity."
    Newton, Optics 1704

    It was the inequalities in the times of Io,Jupiter's innermost
    satellite,that brought Ole Roemer to the conclusion that the cyclical
    descrepancy can be accounted for by the widening and shortening of
    distance between Jupiter and the Earth.

    Normally a person would pick up on these things but unfortunately
    nobody has enough sense to actually look at how Roemer worked it out
    from an orbitally moving Earth just as Kepler had refined the original
    Copernican outlook.

    In what has to be the most incredible acts of vandalism on
    astronomy,that 17th century numbskull created a false notion of
    retrogrades and their resolution and bundled the Keplerian and Romerian
    refinements together -

    "PHÆNOMENON V.
    Then the primary planets, by radii drawn to the earth, describe areas
    no wise proportional to the times; but that the areas which they
    describe by radii drawn to the sun are proportional to the times of
    description.


    For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
    stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
    always seen direct, and to proceed with a motion nearly uniform, that
    is to say, a little swifter in the perihelion and a little slower in
    the aphelion distances, so as to maintain an equality in the
    description of the areas. This a noted proposition among astronomers,
    and particularly demonstrable in Jupiter, from the eclipses of his
    satellites; by the help of which eclipses, as we have said, the
    heliocentric longitudes of that planet, and its distances from the sun,
    are determined." Principia

    What did the great astronomers such as Copernicus,Kepler and Roemer and
    their precise geometric language ever do to deserve having their works
    destroyed using a meaningless wordplay.What is it in human nature that
    you would much prefer a stupid wordplay when modern imaging makes the
    Copernican,Keplerian and Roemerian work easy to uderstand and for
    productive work.


 

 
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